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Do I need to neck turn?

 
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  #29  
Old 06-20-2013, 07:49 PM
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Re: Do I need to neck turn?

Bart you're taking things pretty literal, but that's ok.
Maybe I should have said "Expand the neck .000001 over bullet/brass surface profile"? Or, "expand the neck a real damn small amount"?
TracySes23, I never tied anything to actual bullet diameter or tolerances. I didn't say expand a 24cal neck to .243001 to release a bullet..
I think you're missing the point completely.

What's important is that you understand that bullet release has nothing to do with neck/bullet interface friction(unless cold welded). That cases which are SS media or ultrasonically cleaned shoot no differently than uncleaned cases. There is no load adjustment based directly on 'pull force' changes from this.
Now, given control over friction, pull force can correlate well enough to grip force. I know this and rely on it. But I don't take any meaning of it beyond that.
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  #30  
Old 06-20-2013, 08:23 PM
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Re: Do I need to neck turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
Bart you're taking things pretty literal, but that's ok.
Well, if the literal translation ain't correct, then neither was the message.

Still waiting for an explanation as to how case necks expand any amount over bullet diameter towards the case mouth and the bullet stays still until the high pressure gas exits at the case mouth.

What about cartridges whose inside neck diameters are 2 to 3 thousandths larger than the bullets which are glued in with no neck tension at all?

Do cartridges with well-crimped case mouths into deep cannelures let the gas flow forward around the bullet then bend the case mouth out straight before the bullet starts to move?
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  #31  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:12 PM
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Re: Do I need to neck turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart B View Post
Well, if the literal translation ain't correct, then neither was the message.

Still waiting for an explanation as to how case necks expand any amount over bullet diameter towards the case mouth and the bullet stays still until the high pressure gas exits at the case mouth.

What about cartridges whose inside neck diameters are 2 to 3 thousandths larger than the bullets which are glued in with no neck tension at all?

Do cartridges with well-crimped case mouths into deep cannelures let the gas flow forward around the bullet then bend the case mouth out straight before the bullet starts to move?
Bart B , why don't you just drop it and if you don't understand that I'll drive up to Loveland and have that meeting you keep avoiding.
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  #32  
Old 06-21-2013, 01:09 AM
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Re: Do I need to neck turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
Bart you're taking things pretty literal, but that's ok.
Maybe I should have said "Expand the neck .000001 over bullet/brass surface profile"? Or, "expand the neck a real damn small amount"?
TracySes23, I never tied anything to actual bullet diameter or tolerances. I didn't say expand a 24cal neck to .243001 to release a bullet..
I think you're missing the point completely.

What's important is that you understand that bullet release has nothing to do with neck/bullet interface friction(unless cold welded). That cases which are SS media or ultrasonically cleaned shoot no differently than uncleaned cases. There is no load adjustment based directly on 'pull force' changes from this.
Now, given control over friction, pull force can correlate well enough to grip force. I know this and rely on it. But I don't take any meaning of it beyond that.
I'm a bit confused as to why you even mentioned the number .000001, if it wasn't supposed to be tied to something.
It seems to me you don't understand enough, to explain what you want to get your point across to someone.
If it didn't represent inches, exactly what did it represent?
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  #33  
Old 06-21-2013, 03:18 AM
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Re: Do I need to neck turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TracySes23 View Post
I'm a bit confused as to why you even mentioned the number .000001, if it wasn't supposed to be tied to something.
It seems to me you don't understand enough, to explain what you want to get your point across to someone.
If it didn't represent inches, exactly what did it represent?
I think he's already stated it represents a damn small distance of separation.

Are you guys PhD's in the field of nanotechnology?

"Nanotechnology (sometimes shortened to "nanotech") is the manipulation of matter on an atomic and molecular scale. The earliest, widespread description of nanotechnology[1][2] referred to the particular technological goal of precisely manipulating atoms and molecules for fabrication of macroscale products, also now referred to as molecular nanotechnology. A more generalized description of nanotechnology was subsequently established by the National Nanotechnology Initiative, which defines nanotechnology as the manipulation of matter with at least one dimension sized from 1 to 100 nanometers. This definition reflects the fact that quantum mechanical effects are important at this quantum-realm scale, and so the definition shifted from a particular technological goal to a research category inclusive of all types of research and technologies that deal with the special properties of matter that occur below the given size threshold. It is therefore common to see the plural form "nanotechnologies" as well as "nanoscale technologies" to refer to the broad range of research and applications whose common trait is size."

Or perhaps he was talking about these phenomena, which occur when measurements of materials are reduced to the nanoscale:

"Several phenomena become pronounced as the size of the system decreases. These include statistical mechanical effects, as well as quantum mechanical effects, for example the “quantum size effect” where the electronic properties of solids are altered with great reductions in particle size. This effect does not come into play by going from macro to micro dimensions. However, quantum effects can become significant when the nanometer size range is reached, typically at distances of 100 nanometers or less, the so-called quantum realm. Additionally, a number of physical (mechanical, electrical, optical, etc.) properties change when compared to macroscopic systems. One example is the increase in surface area to volume ratio altering mechanical, thermal and catalytic properties of materials. Diffusion and reactions at nanoscale, nanostructures materials and nanodevices with fast ion transport are generally referred to nanoionics. Mechanical properties of nanosystems are of interest in the nanomechanics research. The catalytic activity of nanomaterials also opens potential risks in their interaction with biomaterials.

Materials reduced to the nanoscale can show different properties compared to what they exhibit on a macroscale, enabling unique applications. For instance, opaque substances can become transparent (copper); stable materials can turn combustible (aluminum); insoluble materials may become soluble (gold). A material such as gold, which is chemically inert at normal scales, can serve as a potent chemical catalyst at nanoscales. Much of the fascination with nanotechnology stems from these quantum and surface phenomena that matter exhibits at the nanoscale."

Or another way of putting it - the number .000001 is the amount an average man's beard grows in the time it takes him to raise the razor to his face.

There, I think that makes it all perfectly clear...
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  #34  
Old 06-21-2013, 07:26 AM
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Re: Do I need to neck turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
Are you guys PhD's in the field of nanotechnology?
I'm not, but I know some things about what can only be observed by using SEM's to visibly discriminate the perfections and imperfections of nano/micro-scale issues with materials. SEM's can achieve resolution better than 1 nanometer; about 0.00000004 inch.

There's some physics issues I don't quite understand why a bullet would remain fixed in place while the case neck expands (whatever amount) around it as pressure builds up inside the case. For every 100 pounds of pressure per square inch in the case, there's almost 7.5 pounds of force against a seated 30 caliber bullet's back end. How can it stay fixed in place while the case neck expands away from it?
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  #35  
Old 06-21-2013, 09:12 AM
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Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 180
Re: Do I need to neck turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phorwath View Post
I think he's already stated it represents a damn small distance of separation.

Are you guys PhD's in the field of nanotechnology?


Or another way of putting it - the number .000001 is the amount an average man's beard grows in the time it takes him to raise the razor to his face.

There, I think that makes it all perfectly clear...
That's a little vague. Since your referencing something that can't be easily measured & is likely a guesstimate at best.

A simpler explanation would be to make a comparison between a piece of cellophane or plastic wrap which normally measures one thousandths of an inch aka .001".

.000001" is 1000 times thinner than .001"

BTW, BartB..... Your math is perfect. It's also an excellent way to simplify clarifying your point and your logic is faultless.
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