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Do I need FL sizing die?

 
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  #15  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:10 PM
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Re: Do I need FL sizing die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
FL sizing is a choice, but not a single choice.
The choices leading to FL sizing, or successful avoidance of it:
-Cartridge design
-Chamber body clearances
-Load pressure
-Amount of barrel steel around a chamber

CARTRIDGE DESIGN: large capacity cases with high body taper and low shoulder angles (like a 30-06) will have to be FL sized.
CHAMBER BODY CLEARANCES: On firing, cases hit and follow expanding chambers walls. Once pressure drops, the case and chamber walls spring back. With big clearances from 'new' case dimensions, firing will expand the brass to the point of yielding. These now larger cases are thinner by as much. Thinner cases spring back less, while the chamber springs back fully(it better), potentially leaving an interference fit.
High LOAD PRESSURE and insufficient BARREL STEEL AROUND CHAMBER go hand in hand at this point to do the same as excess clearances, even without excess clearances.
These conditions are chronic, and they are choices today.

Shoulder bumping is another subject, but similar in cause/effect and commonly needed. An added cause/choice directly contributing to this, is excess head spacing.

I don't and never will FL size, as this is among my choices.
if you use a neck only die (and I do a lot of the time) you will eventually have to set the shoulder back. There's no way out of it. You can buy a bump die and push the shoulder back three or four thousandths and start all over again. But if you have a full length die your already doing this (if you have it setup right). Now the part about neck sizing only really partains to a custom chamber as there is little benifit gained from neck sizing a factory chamber. Many of us still do this in factory chambers to reduce bullet runout by turning necks, but other than that there is very little to be gained. By chance that you were lucky enough to get a chamber cut on the minimum spec, then there is something to be gained of course.

Now if you happen to be shooting belted cases you will eventually get to the point where the area just above the belt will get tight. A standard full length die won't get you there most of the time (if any at all will). Then you need a die to also resize that part of the case. I see that with my .450 and my .270 mag after four or five high pressure loads. They'll still chamber, but they are a little tight.

I agree with you about the barrel/bridge expansion and the brass meeting it's yield strength and beyond. I know of no one that goes thru life entirely with a neck die, but also know lots and lots of folks that neck size a lot of the time.
gary
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  #16  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:46 PM
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Re: Do I need FL sizing die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
I'm in agreement with Bullet Bumper, and follow his route.

Once my cases are fully fireformed(via partial NS only with 3-4 firings), I measure & cull by H20 capacity. Within a couple firings it'll be time to bump ~30deg shoulders 1thou(higher angles = less often, if ever). My bump is with Redding body dies, or if chamber/die mismatch, I go to JLC Precision custom body dies. I partial NS using Wilson & nitrided bushings. Some of my Wilsons were blanks cut with my reamers.

I have never had to replace a piece of brass. With my loads, dies, chambers, & this sizing, it lasts forever. Given this, I don't lose any sleep keeping ~120 perfect cases per 1,000 measured, and further culling out ~20-30 from ~120 due to H20 capacity departures. I get 80 or so cases that match in capacity,, will always match, and they will not grow in loaded runout.
I also never need to re-trim(which is one reason my cases remain matching in capacity).

For those who think FL sizing is a shortcut; it's not always. Not in the long run.
Here I'm talkin about actual FL sizing(not body/bushing sizing) and not FL sizing with a custom die(which could be excellent). Just off the shelf FL dies, which lead to continual trimming.
These, I will never use.

And running extreme pressure loads?
Everything comes with a price, and I chose to stay away from this.
I know these loads work around other tough issues, and if I were a PB BR competitor, I'd go this route also.
But with larger cartridges the price returns more pain than gain.
Nice to see a switched on reloader well done.
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  #17  
Old 01-16-2013, 03:14 PM
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Re: Do I need FL sizing die?

Stick with Redding or RCBS dies. I've had most all of them and those two dies never gave me any trouble, the others did.
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  #18  
Old 01-17-2013, 08:38 AM
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Re: Do I need FL sizing die?

Mikecr, thanks for sharing your techniques very much.

But after studying a bit deeper what you wrote I have a couple of questions if you don't mind...

1. When do you (if you do) anneal?

2. Do you load your final preferred load only after you have fire-formed your cases? In other words you don't work up loads on non-fire formed cases?

3. Regarding H2O capacity, do you develop a 'reference' capacity for your fire formed brass only? Seems to me that the H2O capacity would be greater on fire formed cases as compared to the same lot of unfired cases.

Am I on track or confusing myself and wandering off into minutia?

I truly appreciate all your time, patience and expertise sharing.

Doc
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  #19  
Old 01-17-2013, 10:21 AM
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Re: Do I need FL sizing die?

I dont know how mikecr develops h2o case capacity (cc). but here is how I do it.
fire 10 rnds, deprime and neck sise then clean the brass
trim to lenght and put your bullet on top and seat it by chambering in your rifle
weigh the 10 then divide by 10 to get the average weight of an empty rnd
now useing a hypodermic needle fill each one with water through the flash hole (use a q tip to wipe water out of the primer pocket)
again weigh and divide by 10 subtract the average low from the high and that is your case capacity
every time you change bullet stlye or weight the cc changes


another note, at the same time as you chamber your dummy rnds put a rod down the barrel measure the distance from the muzzle to the tip and add the lenght of the bullet this will give you your true barrel length and the cc and barrel lenght =expansion ratio (er)
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  #20  
Old 01-17-2013, 06:41 PM
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Re: Do I need FL sizing die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocB View Post
1. When do you (if you do) anneal?
I lead dip anneal to the depth where brass will yield in fireforming. I do this during preps, and as needed with necks to keep neck tension consistent(not very often from my sizing).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocB View Post
2. Do you load your final preferred load only after you have fire-formed your cases? In other words you don't work up loads on non-fire formed cases?
Working up powder loads with new brass is a waste of time, even if you intend to use only new brass. I only test for optimum seating during fireforming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocB View Post
3. Regarding H2O capacity, do you develop a 'reference' capacity for your fire formed brass only? Seems to me that the H2O capacity would be greater on fire formed cases as compared to the same lot of unfired cases.
You're correct that capacity increases with fireforming, even with FL sized brass.
I measure capacity only when the cases have stabilized in all dimensions, which is 3-4 firings with no body sizing. Trim lengths reconfirmed and touched up if needed.
With FL sizing, capacity will vary, and over time, with every bit springing back from it. No getting around this.
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  #21  
Old 01-17-2013, 08:47 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Nebraska
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Re: Do I need FL sizing die?

I know nothing about fire forming. I do know that RCBS in Redding dies a great.
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