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Which die should I use?

 
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  #29  
Old 07-17-2006, 06:19 PM
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Re: Which die should I use?

Hired Gun,
A "double standard" is necessary if you are comparing apples to airplanes. It just sounds like YOU haven't run into problems when reloading belted cases more that 3 times. Again ... it does happen, but it's very rare to get that many reloadings from belted cases. Belted cases are quite different from non-belted cases due to the limited amount of over travel available for your resizing die.

NOTE: You should NOT be able to feel your handloads squeeze into your chamber! You're on the verge of seeing the "fail to chamber" problem that I'm describing.

ALSO, unlike factory ammo - your belted magnum handloads should ALWAYS headspace on the shoulder (not the belt). This prevents brass stretching that leads to case head separations.

AND, I have seen experienced reloaders (with non-belted cases) that were convinced that they needed to use a FL die to bump the shoulder back - when what they really needed was to resize the "pressure ring" of their case. The reason their FL die worked for them is their resizing die was ALSO resizing their pressure ring for them. This is not always the case ... but it happens.

Too many shooters try benchrest handloading techniques that aren't approprate for hunting ammo. My personal opinion is that neck sizing is strictly for "some" benchrest shooters. Tony Boyer doesn't bother with it, and he's one of the most competitive shooters in the world. The accuracy gain might improve your groups by .002" but it's more likely to cause a "fail to chamber" symptom in a hunting rifle. Benchrest shooters are aware of the "exact" overall fit of their handloads - not just the headspace.

Most rifle cases have a slight taper that is difficult to measure accurately, and non-belted calibers are MUCH easier to resize when you use a FL die properly.

Good Shooting,
Innovative
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  #30  
Old 07-17-2006, 06:31 PM
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Re: Which die should I use?

I'm not Abinok but I sure know how to read a mic. When it comes to precision I just don't trust the old digital calipers. These are taken with my 0-1" Starrett micrometer.

Brand new 300 Weatherby brass measure .508" to .509" right above the belts. The belts measure .529"
After the 10 firings with good solid loads they now measure .512" to .513" just over the belts and .533-.534 across the belts. The primer pockets are still holding fine. Most run to the small side of the range and have never seen anything but a Lee Collet die. The ones that go .534 catch on the bottom of the Lee die and make a snap noise when the die pops down over the belts. They still chamber fine even before neck sizing again. As you probably know a Mark 5 has very little cam action compared to a 2 lug action and they still close pretty smooth. It seems my chamber is preventing them from growing any more than that. Is this just a Weatherby, Ruger and Sako thing or are other guns different?

Being these have been redlined a few times during testing and have only been neck sized the worst ones have a very small ripple right above the belt where the brass has flowed. My camera wonít show it well enough to see. Itís almost like a little fillet right in there tight on the top of the belt. I'm certain this is a bad thing but these brass shoot the best. I can't believe the difference between new brass and these. They just keep getting better. I must have shot 5 back to back 3 shot groups in the 2's. One of the guys I was with shot 2 - 3 shot groups the same size with mine. I only shoot 3 shots as we always go rapid fire and the barrel is too hot if we go 4 shots. I'm certain a 5th shot would do a lot of damage to my barrel. His Remington 700 CDL 300 RUM with factory ammo couldnít get under 1 Ĺ ď.
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  #31  
Old 07-17-2006, 06:42 PM
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Re: Which die should I use?

Looks like we were typing at the same time.
Thanks for the reply.
[ QUOTE ]

ALSO, unlike factory ammo - your belted magnum handloads should ALWAYS headspace on the shoulder (not the belt). This prevents brass stretching that leads to case head separations.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have been saying this for years but there is one poster here that just can't seem to get a handle on this. According to your postion in the quotes we are on the same page as how a case should fit in a chamber. There is no double standard as both have tapered shoulders to headspace on. Only a straight walled rimmed case would headspace on the rim.

I still like neck sizing only and have grown very accustomed to a little resistance to closing the bolt on my best brass. What I think would be good is some kind of die that would press the case heads down a pinch to tighten up primers pockets on belted and non-belted cases alike.
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Build a man a fire and you heat him for a day.
Set him on fire and you heat him for life.

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Gordy and Brady.
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  #32  
Old 07-18-2006, 08:58 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 878
Re: Which die should I use?

[ QUOTE ]
After 2 or 3 reloadings, most belted cases measure .513" and sometimes a lot more after being resized with conventional resizing dies. What do yours measure?

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't find a piece of brass here anywhere, and any caliber that measures more than .509" except for the 300wby. This brass is on its 6th firing, and measures .516". The wtby brass still chambers easily. My 7mmSTW has the largest chamber... and is the .509" Ill have a chance to measure for 2 7mmrem guns that have cases headed back today to be loaded sometime this evening.
Sizing in the redding body die trimms .002" off that number for most of the cases im loading... + - .0005" or so.
What does your die return the diameter to?
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  #33  
Old 07-19-2006, 09:02 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 878
Re: Which die should I use?

Hired gun,
my experences have been simular to your in some ways. I too have notticed that on some cases the collet die will "snap" over the belt, without any apparent problems. ive also notticed that for the belted cartridges, you can find collet dies with a belt diameter as small as .530, so some brass will "snap" earlier than others. I did nottice that some of my reduced load brass (which has 20+ firings on it) has the tendancy to snap a little too hard... and ive notticed the effects as being a little more runout on these rounds... but then again, its a 90gr XTP, and ive grown to accept a little more on it that my LR loads.

As I mentioned, the redding body die puts a dent in that to some degree. if you ever get the urge to try the body die, give me a hollar first, and you can borrow mine to try.
Additionally... Ive never heard any "great controversy" or double standard on headspacing belted cartridges. I bump the shoulder on everything I shoot... well, almost everything anyway. I burned out my first 300WM barrel with the lee collet die, and it shot great, and for that matter, my current barrel shoots well with neck only sizing as well... but it shoots better with .002" of bump. Maybe it gives everything some room to move around and find that warm and fuzzy spot that it shoots best from... or maybe it just makes room for more magical fairy dust who knows? With the shoulder bumped the way I am doing, there is still .005" on average between the belt and chamber, so I know that after its fireformed (usually with a false shoulder he first time) theres no chance of that belt ever touching steel. I must have missed the guy who thought that headspacing a belted case off the belt was a good idea... because I might have tried to do some "splaining" to that fella too.
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  #34  
Old 07-19-2006, 12:06 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,114
Re: Which die should I use?

Well, here goes my special ingredient into this pot of case sizing dies. You may not like the taste it has, but such is life.

Sierra Bullets has been full-length sizing all their belted and rimless bottleneck cases for accuracy testing since the 1950s. They do this because they get best accuracy this way. A good batch of bullets will shoot in the ones in their test range; they meter, not weigh powder charges, too. And all types of rifles used to test loads for reloading data got best accuracy with full-length sized cases. Their first Ballistics Technician had a saying about what's needed for best accuracy: "The case has to fit the chamber like a turd in a punch bowl." No binding of any kind when the bolt's closed. No neck or partial sizing. Only full-length sizing with the shoulder set back a few thousandths on both rimless and belted bottleneck cases. Belted cases headspacing on the belt and rimless ones on the shoulder.
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  #35  
Old 07-19-2006, 05:32 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North Bend, Oregon
Posts: 1,212
Re: Which die should I use?

Welcome back Bart,
I thought you were going to leave me hangin on this one. Remember the time you told us about the 1000 yard shooters finding out that new brass was more accurate than fire formed brass? I just can't get my mind around this one. What is the logic of a case laying in the bottom of the "punch bowl" (best) verses the case fitting the "punch bowl" well supported on its shoulder with its payload well centered on the bore. (worst) What am I missing? I'm pretty sure I am not alone on this.
__________________
Build a man a fire and you heat him for a day.
Set him on fire and you heat him for life.

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Gordy and Brady.
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