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Die question.

 
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2012, 09:58 PM
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Re: Die question.

A bushing neck dies allows you to size only the case neck to a specific dia, thus controlling both neck tension on the bullet and less working of the case neck and at the same time leaving the case a is (fire formed to your chamber). I full lenght die sizies the entire case, in doing so it sizes the neck down a greater amount than the neck die and then as you remove the case from the FL die it pulls the neck over an expander ball. This last step is where a FL die can contribute to bullet runout/ poor concentricity of the loaded round.

There is one other die design out there that has a good following which is the Lee collet neck die. How it works is, as the case is forced into the die it pushes the collet up into a tapered bushing. The collet then squeezes the neck down onto a mandrel of a specific for cal size. It's actually a pretty clever design, just leaves some thing to be desired in regards to quality, but it works and works well by my personal experience. It cost about $21 through midway Vs. $ 68+ plus for the Redding or Forester bushing neck dies
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Keep in mind the animals we shoot for food and display are not bullet proof. Contrary to popular belief, they bleed and die just like they did a hundred years ago. Being competent with a given rifle is far more important than impressive ballistics and poor shootability. High velocity misses never put a steak in the freezer.

Joe
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  #9  
Old 07-26-2012, 11:06 PM
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Re: Die question.

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Originally Posted by RangerBrad View Post
Well, I guess what I'm thinking is that with a micrometer die I can dial the ogive to lands distance precisiously for each bullet so pressures and speeds may be more consistant. I'm not sure about what an s bushing die may ad for me over a regular sizing die. Could yal explain the diffrence between the 2 sizing dies. Thank's, Brad
Standard full length sizing dies have neck diameters small enoug to size fired case necks down enough so their expander ball coming up through the smaller case mouth will enlarge it enough to hold bullets very firmly. But that typically bends the case necks a little bit; especially if they're a lot thinner on one side than the other. The case mouth is now small enough so all bullets for that caliber will be held tightly regardless of how thick the case neck wall is.

A full length bushing die's one that uses an interchangeable bushing it the top of the die that only sizes the neck. The rest of the die below the bushing sizes the fired case body diameters down a bit and also sets the fired case shoulder back a little. The bushing only swages the fired case neck down just enough to hold the bullet firmly. Bushings come in different diameters for a given caliber so you can use the one that's best for your shooting application. It's best to not use an expander button with these dies but instead use a bushing whose size is 2 or 3 thousandths smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter.

The following link to Redding's web site shows how a bushing die's made and details about them.

Type S Bushing Dies | Redding Reloading Equipment: reloading equipment for rifles, handguns, pistols, revolvers and SAECO bullet casting equipment

The picture has the bushing gold colored. The full bushing die's the best one to use for accuracy; it full length sizes your cases and makes their necks very straight. RCBS also makes these dies. Either is better for best accuracy results and are popular with competitive shooters who know better than to try any die that sizes only the neck because full length sizing dies center the case neck more precicely on the case shoulder. If a sized bottleneck case neck ain't well centered on the case shoulder, there's no way it'll be well centered in the chamber neck.

There's no way one can seat bullets in sized cases such that their jump to the rifling distance is held to less than a .001" spread. The reason's two fold.

First, the shape of the front part of the bullet from its tip back to full bullet diameter varies a little bit. If one measures (with the right tool) the distance from a point near the tip of a 25 caliber bullet that's about 1/10th inch in diameter (about where the bullet seater touches the bullet) back to where the bullet's about .250" in diameter will first contact the rifling, they'll see a few thousandths spread. While the pointing die forming the bullet is the same shape for each bullet, the jacket and core vary enough in composition such that they are not all exactly the same shape.

Second, when bottleneck cases are full length sized and their shoulder's set back a tiny bit, after the sized case comes out of the die, the distance from the case head to a reference point on the case shoulder will vary by a few thousandths of an inch. How much depends on how much lube was used on the case and how much the press springs from pressure.

As the .25-06 round's shoulder is hard against the chamber shoulder when the round fires, the space between the bolt face and case head will vary at least as much as the spread in head to shoulder distance across a batch of sized cases. And the firing pin's impact will set the case shoulder back 1 or 2 thousandths from the force of the firing pin spring driving the case hard into the chamber shoulder.

With the bullet's tip distance from seater contact point to the case head may well have been held to tight tolerances when seating the bullet, the actual round's distance from shoulder to the rifling contact point on the bullet will vary several thousandths of an inch. The only way to keep the distance repeatable from shot to shot is seat the bullets out far enough so they jam into the rifling and set back a few thousandths in the case neck when the round's chambered.

All's not lost accuracy wise if there's several thousandths jump the bullet makes to the rifling. In match conditioned M1 and M14 service rifles shooting commercial .308 Win. match ammo, when their barrels are 2/3rds worn out, the bullets jump about 1/10th inch to the rifling; with a new barrel, bullets jumped only about 10/1000ths inch to the rifling. These well built semiauto rifles would shoot 2/3 MOA (4 inches) at 600 yards with a new barrel and maintain that accuracy level until about 3/4ths worn out around 3000 rounds. At 100 yards, they would shoot under 1/3 MOA. Bolt action rifles are no different and the best of them can shoot bullets jumping 1/10th inch to the rifling more accurate that those match grade service rifles.

There's other things to get right and exact, so I wouldn't loose any sleep over having a few thousandths spread in how far your bullets have to leap from their resting place to where they start getting engraved by the rifling. It's a non issue unless your rifle's capable of shooting no worse than 1/2 MOA (3 inches) at 600 yards. Then you should soft seat your bullets in light neck tension and single load them one at a time.
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  #10  
Old 07-27-2012, 10:52 AM
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Re: Die question.

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Originally Posted by RangerBrad View Post
I have run of the mill of the shelf RCBS dies for my 25-06. ( the $35 a set style). I am loading for 115gr berger's using win brass. Do yal think accuracy would be improved greatly if loaded using the reeding style micrometer seating dies and the brass dies that I can remove the expander ball on when loading? Thanks, Brad
very little will be gained via the micrometer head. But the Redding seater is a little tighter and works off the Forster design (a better & cheaper die by the way). On the otherhand if you were to use something like a Redding or Forster full length sizing die that had maybe 2/3rd's the runout with a Forster seater you should see an improvement down range.
gary
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  #11  
Old 07-27-2012, 11:30 AM
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Re: Die question.

Actually, standard dies, such as what you already have, are quite good, on average. Any defective dies - rare - will be exchanged by the maker. The ony real limit to what you can do with what you have will be your own skill and work methods. And 'precision' OAL is meaningless after a point. I find no accuracy difference with +/- 5 thou OAL variation in most factory rifles, sometimes even more. Ditto with "precision" sizing of case necks; after a point, it just doesn't matter. Ditto precision powder charges. Thing is, after a certain point , simple but uncontrollable variations in primers have more effect than agonizing about trivial precision anywhere else. (Our real challenge is to find where the limits for our rigs are and load inside them!)

Neck bushing dies are fine when we have custom tight neck chambers that require turning the necks to a specific thickness so the inside diameter is also consistant. Sure, we can do the same thing with loose factory (SAMMI) chambers but the case neck's already sloppy fit in the chamber neck nulifies the effect of turning so it adds little or nothing to accuracy. IMHO. I get best necks/lowest bullet runout using an inexpensive Lee Collet Neck Sizer along with a Forster body die.

Mic die seating heads are (slight) user aids but they add nothing to the quality of the ammo. They're hardly worth the cost to a lot of us but some love 'em.

ONLY Redding and Forster's seaters have snugly fitted full body length sleeves that align the case and bullet very well before seating begins. Other dies with short alignment sleeves are perhaps slightly easier to load with but their sleeves rarely do anything very good for concentricity.
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  #12  
Old 07-27-2012, 12:47 PM
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Re: Die question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomtube View Post
Actually, standard dies, such as what you already have, are quite good, on average. Any defective dies - rare - will be exchanged by the maker. The ony real limit to what you can do with what you have will be your own skill and work methods. And 'precision' OAL is meaningless after a point. I find no accuracy difference with +/- 5 thou OAL variation in most factory rifles, sometimes even more. Ditto with "precision" sizing of case necks; after a point, it just doesn't matter. Ditto precision powder charges. Thing is, after a certain point , simple but uncontrollable variations in primers have more effect than agonizing about trivial precision anywhere else. (Our real challenge is to find where the limits for our rigs are and load inside them!)

Neck bushing dies are fine when we have custom tight neck chambers that require turning the necks to a specific thickness so the inside diameter is also consistant. Sure, we can do the same thing with loose factory (SAMMI) chambers but the case neck's already sloppy fit in the chamber neck nulifies the effect of turning so it adds little or nothing to accuracy. IMHO. I get best necks/lowest bullet runout using an inexpensive Lee Collet Neck Sizer along with a Forster body die.

Mic die seating heads are (slight) user aids but they add nothing to the quality of the ammo. They're hardly worth the cost to a lot of us but some love 'em.

ONLY Redding and Forster's seaters have snugly fitted full body length sleeves that align the case and bullet very well before seating begins. Other dies with short alignment sleeves are perhaps slightly easier to load with but their sleeves rarely do anything very good for concentricity.
When you take the sizing stem out of a die, all are pretty much the same. The Forster sizing button is located much higher than the other brands, and I like this better as the case body is pretty contained in the die before the neck I.D. is sized. Is it much better? I don't know, but I saw alittle improvment in the runout game. Shape wise, I kinda like the Hornaday sizer button best, but I hate the entire die.

I have a couple Lee Collet dies, and have never had any serious luck with them (.223 & 22-250). Going to modify the 22-250 die this winter. I think their idea is right, but also think they didn't take it far enough. Still got a bunch of CAD work to do on this project.
gary
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  #13  
Old 07-27-2012, 05:02 PM
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Re: Die question.

"Shape wise, I kinda like the Hornaday sizer button best, but I hate the entire die. "

Shape wise, I dislike any 'button' type expander, including Forstrer's better than usual system IF it's set up properly. Actually, I MUCH prefer the long cylinder expander of Lee's rifle dies because that kind of expander isn't free to wander around as it's withdrawn. That's why Dick Lee made it that way, and it works too. But I prefer not to use ANY 'drag it out' expander, that's part of why I prefer Lee's collet neck sizer even if I also have to use a body die to do a complete "FL" job.

A lot of people put a lot of focus on expensive seating dies to reduce runout but seated runout pretty much dissappears when the case necks are straight.
With good necks and good technique it's hard to beat Lee's simple and inexpensive seater for making straight ammo.

IMHO, you are totally correct that sizers don't make a lot of difference by brand.
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  #14  
Old 07-28-2012, 05:39 PM
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Re: Die question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomtube View Post
Neck bushing dies are fine when we have custom tight neck chambers that require turning the necks to a specific thickness so the inside diameter is also consistant. Sure, we can do the same thing with loose factory (SAMMI) chambers but the case neck's already sloppy fit in the chamber neck nulifies the effect of turning so it adds little or nothing to accuracy.
How does a sloppy fit of the case neck to the chamber neck effect accuracy as long as the case neck's well centered?

Note that when a bottleneck case that headspaces on the shoulder is fired, the case neck doesn't touch any part of the chamber neck until after the bullet's left and a few inches down the barrel.
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