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COL, and brass capacity. Important Considerations.

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  #22  
Unread 05-03-2009, 09:54 AM
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Re: COL, and brass capacity. Important Considerations.

Hard to argue with physics....to move a bullet at x velocity it needs x amount of pressure/force behind it to get it there.

Certainly there are "fast barrels" and variance from rifle to rifle, but I would think this should fall within 3-5% of previously established loads/velocity levels.

I agree that a chrono, backed by published loading data/Quickload/proven loading data, followed by brass life, are the best indicators of pressure.

That's my 2 cents that are 50% off today, so down to 1 cent. There are so many experienced folks on this board that could weight in with their experience.
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  •   #23  
    Unread 05-03-2009, 02:39 PM
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    Re: COL, and brass capacity. Important Considerations.

    Quote:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Autorotate View Post
    Hard to argue with physics....to move a bullet at x velocity it needs x amount of pressure/force behind it to get it there.

    Certainly there are "fast barrels" and variance from rifle to rifle, but I would think this should fall within 3-5% of previously established loads/velocity levels.

    I agree that a chrono, backed by published loading data/Quickload/proven loading data, followed by brass life, are the best indicators of pressure.

    That's my 2 cents that are 50% off today, so down to 1 cent. There are so many experienced folks on this board that could weight in with their experience.
    Well if your opinion is worth 1 cent, then mine might be worth a half a cent. So here it is

    3% of 3000 fps = 90 fps. That's a lot in my book, especially if we are talking about pressure thresholds. AJ also said in another thread (sorry for pickin' on ya AJ) that he sees a 3% difference in his chrony's. 3% here and another 3% there can add up pretty quick. I may be wrong, but in light of these facts, I still think (and am more comfortable with) seeing and feeling possible pressure signs, which I admit is a far from precise science.

    Another thing to consdier is.... how do we define max or excessive pressure or the difference between them? Is it xx,xxx psi? Is an acceptable and safe pressure of say 65,000 psi in one brass and rifle combination going to be unsafe in another brass and rifle combination?

    Maybe I'm wrong here again, but it seems to me that if a particular load is not overly stressing a rifle chamber/receiver/bolt/action and/or brass, then whatever the pressure is, it's acceptable and safe. Once again, maybe my thinking is too simplistic and void of greater knowledge and experience.
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      #24  
    Unread 05-03-2009, 04:20 PM
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    Re: COL, and brass capacity. Important Considerations.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Well if your opinion is worth 1 cent, then mine might be worth a half a cent. So here it is
    Maybe if I get a govt bailout, I can afford to read this thread then

    3% of 3000 fps = 90 fps. That's a lot in my book, especially if we are talking about pressure thresholds. AJ also said in another thread (sorry for pickin' on ya AJ) that he sees a 3% difference in his chrony's. 3% here and another 3% there can add up pretty quick. I may be wrong, but in light of these facts, I still think (and am more comfortable with) seeing and feeling possible pressure signs, which I admit is a far from precise science.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Another thing to consdier is.... how do we define max or excessive pressure or the difference between them? Is it xx,xxx psi? Is an acceptable and safe pressure of say 65,000 psi in one brass and rifle combination going to be unsafe in another brass and rifle combination?
    This is the $64 question. If you do some research on yield strength and metallurgic stress, most would probably conclude that anything over the SAAMI spec for the cartridge or parent cartridge is a good number not to exceed. I believe cartridges entered into SAAMI are "proofed" with a round that generates 140% of the specified pressure....but that's what I was told from someone that should know, I don't have a written reference for that.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong here again, but it seems to me that if a particular load is not overly stressing a rifle chamber/receiver/bolt/action and/or brass, then whatever the pressure is, it's acceptable and safe. Once again, maybe my thinking is too simplistic and void of greater knowledge and experience.
    I think we're all after the same thing....great performance within established safety margins. The chrono is a tool. Pressure signs is another.

    I prefer to use both and use whatever comes first, and then back off to ensure good good brass life.

    Take care and good shooting.
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      #25  
    Unread 05-03-2009, 04:33 PM
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    Re: COL, and brass capacity. Important Considerations.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AutoRotate View Post
    Well if your opinion is worth 1 cent, then mine might be worth a half a cent. So here it is

    3% of 3000 fps = 90 fps. That's a lot in my book, especially if we are talking about pressure thresholds. AJ also said in another thread (sorry for pickin' on ya AJ) that he sees a 3% difference in his chrony's. 3% here and another 3% there can add up pretty quick. I may be wrong, but in light of these facts, I still think (and am more comfortable with) seeing and feeling possible pressure signs, which I admit is a far from precise science.
    Pick on me all you want, but be accurate. What I said was I had one chrony that was always about 3% high. Thats the reason I bought the other one!

    I've done every test I can think of to verify that the CED M2 is correct and as far as I can tell, it is! Shooting match 22lr ammo through it, verifying my expected velocities and drops with 10 different rifles and 4 pistols. etc etc.

    So I essentially removed 3% error from my measurement criteria.


    An overpressure load is always safe until the last time you fire it!

    I personally will not shoot a load that has a velocity that is higher than the rifle/cartridge is designed to shoot. That means I stick to around 3000fps with my 160AB in my 7mm RM. If I wanted RUM velocities, I'd by a RUM. Same goes for ALL my rifles and pistols.

    Every one of my rifles is a 1/2 moa rifle with my handloads (2 pistols as well), I can reach in the safe and get a rifle with anywhere from 1500ft lbs of muzzle energy to well over 7000ft lbs.

    In my mind, there is no reason to push known safe limits when so many excellent cartridge choices are available.

    I'll continue loading with appropriate powders to appropriate velocities and I'll continue doing it without ever having a sticky bolt, blown primer, stuck cartridge, lug setback etc.

    AJ
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    Last edited by AJ Peacock; 05-03-2009 at 04:37 PM.
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      #26  
    Unread 05-03-2009, 09:17 PM
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    Re: COL, and brass capacity. Important Considerations.

    Quote:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AJ Peacock View Post
    An overpressure load is always safe until the last time you fire it!
    Truer words were never spoken.... good thing I have a Nightforce scope on top of my rifle

    Well off to the range this week to work up loads in the 300 WSM with RL17 and 168 TTSX's, 180 E-Tips and possibly 210 Bergers if I can find some. Unfortunately, there is no data for any of these combos that I know of, so I will have to muddle my way through somehow

    Cheers,

    MR
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      #27  
    Unread 05-04-2009, 02:52 AM
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    Re: COL, and brass capacity. Important Considerations.

    Compliments to all contributors to this thread. There really are some nice 'balanced' and very helpful views from experienced folks out there. Seems to be an order of magnitude better than some other forums I am a member of.

    Up to now I have relied (mostly) on traditional over pressure signs - stiff bolt; extractor marks etc and staying within specified load parameters - but I like the approach of using a number of different data points. I think this is the final reason for me to invest in a good chrony of my own rather than the usual beg; borrow or steal approach
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