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Bushing Dies?

 
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  #15  
Old 03-09-2011, 04:44 PM
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Re: Bushing Dies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
I'm sure with either that bad results mean we're doing something wrong. Afterall, somebody get's each approach to work..

I'm curious as to how a collet forces thickness variance outward. I mean on the surface it looks to me that the collet fingers are pushing(forcing brass) inward.
Now with bushing sizing(Wilson) I follow-up with mandrel expansion(Sinclair). This forces variance outward for me.

Also someone mentioned changing bushings for tension adjustment. This doesn't work. Tension = Springback, applied to area.
To adjust tension with a bushing die(to a pretty fine resolution), you can adjust the LENGTH of neck sizing.
Not sure that any of that could be done with collets.
your added step with a Wilson die is interesting. Never tried it, and really never thought much about it. I usually see runout of less than .001" TIR, and it would seem like the concept of running a sizer ball thru the case might circumvent the process. I'll try it to see what happens
gary
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  #16  
Old 03-09-2011, 04:56 PM
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Re: Bushing Dies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
I'm sure with either that bad results mean we're doing something wrong. Afterall, somebody get's each approach to work..

I'm curious as to how a collet forces thickness variance outward. I mean on the surface it looks to me that the collet fingers are pushing(forcing brass) inward.
Now with bushing sizing(Wilson) I follow-up with mandrel expansion(Sinclair). This forces variance outward for me.

Also someone mentioned changing bushings for tension adjustment. This doesn't work. Tension = Springback, applied to area.
To adjust tension with a bushing die(to a pretty fine resolution), you can adjust the LENGTH of neck sizing.
Not sure that any of that could be done with collets.
Mike,

I mentioned neck tension and perhaps used the term improperly. What I meant was that I use my bushing to size down .002" less than the bullet diameter. I also adjust my die to size about half the neck.

I do this without an expander on fired cases that were neck turned before firing and get excellent concentricity/TIR inside and out on the necks as well as the bullets for what I believe to be reasonable and even neck tension.

I don't think you can get that granular with collet dies although there are some tricks I think. But, it's all relative and the collet system may be good enough for some of us. I haven't yet used Wilson dies, but that would be my next step up/over if I wasn't satisfied with Redding S-Type and the Forster co-ax press.

But, I'm have plenty to learn.

thanks,
richard
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  #17  
Old 03-09-2011, 04:59 PM
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Re: Bushing Dies?

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Originally Posted by rscott5028 View Post
Mike,

I mentioned neck tension and perhaps used the term improperly. What I meant was that I use my bushing to size down .002" less than the bullet diameter. I also adjust my die to size about half the neck.

I do this without an expander on fired cases that were neck turned before firing and get excellent concentricity/TIR inside and out on the necks as well as the bullets for what I believe to be reasonable and even neck tension.

I don't think you can get that granular with collet dies although there are some tricks I think. But, it's all relative and the collet system may be good enough for some of us. I haven't yet used Wilson dies, but that would be my next step up/over if I wasn't satisfied with Redding S-Type and the Forster co-ax press.

But, I'm have plenty to learn.

thanks,
richard
right now I'm playing around with .0025" to .0035" tension on the bullets. Seems to show some promise, and SD's have improved a little bit. Now if it ever decides to stop raining I'll further these tests. Forster does sell sizing balls in different diameters, so that's also an option
gary
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  #18  
Old 03-09-2011, 05:08 PM
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Re: Bushing Dies?

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Originally Posted by Trickymissfit View Post
right now I'm playing around with .0025" to .0035" tension on the bullets. Seems to show some promise, and SD's have improved a little bit. Now if it ever decides to stop raining I'll further these tests. Forster does sell sizing balls in different diameters, so that's also an option
gary
I may try the precision ground K&M Expandiron Mandrels. I hear they're very good especially on new brass before neck turning.

I don't even use the expander when neck sizing fired brass with the proper bushing.
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  #19  
Old 03-09-2011, 07:54 PM
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Re: Bushing Dies?

For partial neck sizing, you don't get anymore tension than springback provides to grip bullet bearing, no matter how undersize you go. And springback is 1-1.5thou (unless you're running WSSM brass at 20thou thickness). So leaving necks more than 1.5thou under (after springback) buys you nothing but tough seating and extra runout. And if you've over heated brass trying to 'anneal' it, you'll leave yourself even tougher seating AND less tension(because of reduced springback both directions).
There are somewhat recent threads that hashed this all out.
And full length neck sizing(the entire neck) changes this, but there is no good reason to ever do this.

The beauty of bushing sizing is that you can downsize no more than needed(excess is just that), AND adjust the length of downsizing to consistantly set best performing tension. Since you avoid excess cycling with this approach, 'annealing'(actually stress relieving), is rarely needed, so the tension you set is consistent -longer.
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  #20  
Old 03-09-2011, 09:02 PM
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Re: Bushing Dies?

Mikecr - Thanks. I'll read up on it.
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  #21  
Old 03-09-2011, 09:22 PM
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Re: Bushing Dies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
For partial neck sizing, you don't get anymore tension than springback provides to grip bullet bearing, no matter how undersize you go. And springback is 1-1.5thou (unless you're running WSSM brass at 20thou thickness). So leaving necks more than 1.5thou under (after springback) buys you nothing but tough seating and extra runout. And if you've over heated brass trying to 'anneal' it, you'll leave yourself even tougher seating AND less tension(because of reduced springback both directions).
There are somewhat recent threads that hashed this all out.
And full length neck sizing(the entire neck) changes this, but there is no good reason to ever do this.

The beauty of bushing sizing is that you can downsize no more than needed(excess is just that), AND adjust the length of downsizing to consistantly set best performing tension. Since you avoid excess cycling with this approach, 'annealing'(actually stress relieving), is rarely needed, so the tension you set is consistent -longer.
Mikecr,

So after re-reading your post and a couple of others, I should probably explain that I remove the expander and use a bushing calculated to leave my ID .002" undersize relative to the bulet OD not accounting for springback.

After resizing my next batch, I'll let them sit over night and measure the ID's. If I understand you correctly, they should settle out at around .0005" to .001" less than the bullet OD.

Is that about right?

Thanks,
Richard
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