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Brass troubles

 
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  #15  
Old 11-25-2008, 06:55 PM
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Re: Brass troubles

Dave ......

Just because I haven't seen it happen, doesn't mean that it can't happen exactly the way you describe. It sure does sound like a possibility. My experience has just shown that even extreme "long jumper" situations (like the picture I provided) won't dent the case. Maybe if my buddy had fired a full box of 300 Win Mag in his 300 Wby we would see some case dents. However, when I showed him what he was doing . . . . he decided against it.

I've proven to shooters, that powder often goes bad when they store it in a cold, damp basement or in their garage. Sometimes irratic ignition can be bad enough to look like a flame thrower.

- Innovative
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  #16  
Old 11-25-2008, 09:55 PM
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Re: Brass troubles

i understand powder can go bad and secondary ignition. i also understand your observation, but i just don't agree with it in this particular example. reason being, he's using the same powder in both loads. one bullet does it and the other doesn't. i realize there are a lot of variables 2 different bullets can bring, mostly being start up pressure with the longer baring surface i'm sure the Nosler has. but, if the powder has degenerated to the point it has secondary ignition with one bullet, i'd bet the farm it would do it with both.

go back to page 4 and pull up a post called "7rum case denting when firing". in that post is a link to another post about this. read that and tell me what you think.

Last edited by davewilson; 11-25-2008 at 10:05 PM.
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2008, 10:54 AM
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Re: Brass troubles

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnummaniac View Post
boomtube is right on the money, that is caused by too little pressure, not delayed ignition or hang fire.
The reason it has happened is because you changed components without working up the load again, the same would happen if you went from a barnes to an interlok also. The all copper bullets develop higher pressures with less powder than most conventional jacketed bullets, therefore you need to add more powder to get the same pressure value.
Whenever you change components you need to start again with about a 5% reduction from the max load and work back up to the previous load, same for changing powder lots.

This is very dangerous! You could have ended up with a destroyed rifle, it is known as s.e.e. (secondary explosion effect).
Magnummaniac.
Gun)
actually nosler includes a notice in every box of e-tip bullets not to exceed the mid-range load in the manual. The e-tip takes less powder to achieve equivalent velocity.

The e-tip is a different animal than the barnes tsx.
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2008, 11:14 PM
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Re: Brass troubles

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumManiac View Post

The all copper bullets develop higher pressures with less powder than most conventional jacketed bullets, therefore you need to add more powder to get the same pressure value.
This statement is half wrong and half right and the first part is an opposite of the second conclusion. Off of the Barnes website:

"These grooved rings act as relief valves as bullet metal flows under pressure while traveling down the bore. Instead of flowing from the front to the base of the bullet, the copper material expands into the grooves. This results in reduced pressures and less copper fouling. Reduced pressures mean the bullet can be safely loaded to higher velocities."

So the all copper bullets develop LOWER pressures with the SAME AMOUNT of powder but you do nee to add more powder to get the same pressure value.

Not trying to bust your chops, just didn't want anyone getting confused.
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  #19  
Old 11-28-2008, 05:25 AM
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Re: Brass troubles

Quote:
Originally Posted by woods View Post
This statement is half wrong and half right and the first part is an opposite of the second conclusion. Off of the Barnes website:

"These grooved rings act as relief valves as bullet metal flows under pressure while traveling down the bore. Instead of flowing from the front to the base of the bullet, the copper material expands into the grooves. This results in reduced pressures and less copper fouling. Reduced pressures mean the bullet can be safely loaded to higher velocities."

So the all copper bullets develop LOWER pressures with the SAME AMOUNT of powder but you do nee to add more powder to get the same pressure value.

Not trying to bust your chops, just didn't want anyone getting confused.
If you believe the 'hype' that Barnes is selling everyone, go right ahead and use the same loads with their bullets as you are for conventional bullets. Compare velocities with a chronograph and we'll see what's what in the real world.

Getting back to the original thread, powder doesn't cause any of the symptons described or shown in those photos, powder dgredation results in hangfires, no ignition or complete detonation and blown rifles, this is caused by a powder charge that hasn't produced the correct pressure for normal ignition as I, boomtube and larrywillis described.
Also, loaders_loft, Nosler say not to exceed the middle charges because pressures would be dangerously high if you exceeded them, not because they produce higher velocity at lower pressure, the only way to achieve any velocity with any bullet is by the pressure developed, not by some 'magical' bullet.
I own a pressure/strain gauge which I use on every load I test, and it will tell me exactly where UNIFORM ignition is happening in each load string, normally on average about 5000psi below max pressure, but velocity is normally only 25-50fps slower at this amount of pressure reduction.
Davewilson,
A long throated rifle will not cause a dent to form on the case because the neck has already expanded to fill the chamber just as the bullet is released from the neck, therefore creating a seal, just as it does in normal or short throated rifles. Nearly all 22-250 rifles have long thtroats and I've never seen a dented case unless there has been a problem as above in the original post.
They are caused by low or inconsistent pressures.
MagnumManiac.
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  #20  
Old 11-28-2008, 10:51 AM
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Re: Brass troubles

MagnumManiac,

Nice post; thanks for the information.

By the way, if you check my post, I didn't mention pressure, only powder and velocity.
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  #21  
Old 11-28-2008, 12:45 PM
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Re: Brass troubles

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumManiac View Post

If you believe the 'hype' that Barnes is selling everyone, go right ahead and use the same loads with their bullets as you are for conventional bullets. Compare velocities with a chronograph and we'll see what's what in the real world.
Okay, here's a small sample of what's what in the real world. Going to my spreadsheet and taking one rifle, a Beretta Mato 300 win mag, and pulling out load and range data for loads that were only loaded-at-the-same-time and shot-at-the-same-time

5/30/05
Accubond 200 / 71.5 gr IMR4831 / 2956 fps
TSX 200 / 71.5 gr IMR 4831 / 2896 fps

2/12/06
Accubond 200 / 79 gr H1000/ 2983 fps
TSX 200 / 79 gr H1000 / 2967 fps

10/1/06
Accubond 200 / 72 gr RL22 / 2926 fps
TSX 200 / 72 gr RL22 / 2884 fps

That is shooting 4 shot groups. I could pull many more of these comparisons out of my spreadsheet. They generally happen during the load development stage on a new rifle.

It has always been my experience and others from what I have read that it takes more powder behind a TSX to achieve the same velocities. To me that means the TSX's develop less pressure for the same amount of powder.
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