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Best Neck Turning Tool

 
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  #15  
Old 10-18-2010, 11:06 AM
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Re: Best Neck Turning Tool

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Originally Posted by Mikecr View Post
You've got some pretty weird notions Gary..
For one, neck turning has nothing to do with adjusting either concentricity or runout.
It's purpose is soley to produce necks at a desired thickness. Fireforming takes care of the rest.
Neck turning is a floating operation with the turner in hand. So even though wobbly cases are less fun to turn, thickness results hold well.

Pin anvils will not work so well for items of tapered thickness, or irregular form. This is often what you have with new brass.
A ball provides a precise point contact, which is all we desire to read -at each point.

I don't think I could stand the Pumpkin because it looks to obscure observation of the cut. And I really dont see a 'system' there.
Just a turning tool. Don't know about mandrel/expander or cutter options, and everybody knows indicators don't work for measuring neck thickness..
Now all turning tools have complete adjustability with their cutters. I'm sure the Pumpkin does as well. But it doesn't matter if you commision NASA to provide 1/2thou cutter clicks. You still have to turn a case or two to determine that needed adjustment. It's trial & error because results vary by the amount taken in the pass.
Within 4 culled cases I can adjust ANY turner to the correct results using feeler gauges and the cutter set screw to lock it down.


But it's my understanding that the Pumpkin uses an eccentric mandrel for adjustment. So does Sinclair's NT4000 in a sense(eccentric mandrel collar).
But Sinclair still retains a round mandrel, which is useful elsewhere. Sinclair is large enough for cooling and to hold steady, and it's unobstructed which aids in controlling the feed rate.


I Don't like the K&M because their mandrels are too big for use beyond turning, and the expandiron is nothing but a button(the first thing to remove from a die, and throw away) which wipes shoulder brass into necks and pulls necks all outta whack. It's body was too small for me. The inside reamer is not needed or desired for turning. It's purpose is specifically to grind out doughnuts(if you have that issue). But beyond my nit-picks, it does work well. Just no better than Sinclair's more useful system.

You know,, everyone supports what they have.
And this is one subject I need to start steering clear of.........
what you've stated in your post parallels my thoughts exactly! I do not like neck turners that follow a mandrel. If you have clearence between the mandrel and the neck wall you have error. This is why I'm so interested in the Wilson neck turning setup, as everything is located off of the centerline of the case body instead of the neck centerline. (make sense to you?) But I have not bought the setup yet, but I will.

I have found that a once fired case will have some runout in the neck on every rifle I own. Of course some are a little more than others, and I do have a couple rifles that will be less than .0005" everytime. Probably good enough for 98% of the shooters on this planet. Now I do not neck size every round I shoot, but the smaller sizes I do. I like to size the I.D.'s before I do anything else. When I do this they are to the size I want, and then I base everything off that. Sinclair wants you to actually expand the I.D. for clearence, and I'm dead set against this. You have to have a good starting point to gauge everything off of.

I neck turn for two basic reasons. One is to fit the chamber, and the other is to improve concentricity. The latter works well for me, but it's also not perfect. I often see brand new brass with as much as .010" runout in the neck (usually junk), and .005" is common. If I full length size a case; hopefulling the I.D. of the neck is in correct relationship with the centerline of the body of the case. That's when it's time to shave the necks. If I don't do this and size with a bushing it throws the I.D. out of alignment. I basicly shave the necks to make them concentric with the I.D. Works well for me. Are my loaded rounds perfect? Far from it! But I do see a vast improvement on my runout gauge. Now there's nobody here that hates neck turning any worse than me, and if there was a better way I'd jump on it.

The Sinclair tool can be made to work well, but I still don't like it. I've experimented with diamond shaped arbors, and they are better (less friction buildup). Their cutter leaves a lot to be desired (a Devlieg cutter would be perfect). Still I can do a couple hundred rounds of brass and hold the O.D. to less than .0003" with a diameter window of about the same. Still I have always found it to be awkward to use. Not perfect, but I'm trying! Also I think I've reached the point that I need a better way to seat bullets. .0005" error here gives you .001" TIR on a loaded round. I'm working on a new seater die design that I hope will cure at least 50% of the rest of the run out. But to use it will be a four step operation; thus being a little slow in the process. Of course the otherside of the coin flip will say just how good do you really need?

In my world I've always found that measurments came out better when measured over pins. The only time I ever relied of balls was to locate something. If you have access to a pin mic that you can change the anvils in; try it. I use gauge pins as they are more ridgid. But if a ball mic works for you, then so be it. But the pins will mimic the seating area of a bullet, and that's the critical point in the end.
gary

Last edited by Trickymissfit; 10-18-2010 at 11:12 AM.
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  #16  
Old 10-18-2010, 12:24 PM
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Re: Best Neck Turning Tool

Reasons we turn necks aside, the actual operation get's a whole lot simpler when you accept that it is only producing desired thickness. That's it.
Everything else, including thinkings of the left handed,, are beyond proper neck turning.

The purpose of mandrel expansion is twofold(atleast). It pushes thickness variance outward, including any doughnut, for you to cut. And it leaves the neck ID a close enough fit to ensure brass is fully supported between the mandrel and cutter, without overheating/expansion during the cut.
The Sinclair mandrels are sized so that they can be used to push any remaining thickness variance outward during reloading -just prior to bullet seating. This aids in straighter seating. I also use this system to measure and adjust seating force, before bullet seatings(with a loadcell in Sinclair's die).

And I might as well go here; Bullet seating is also not to 'straighten' cartridges.
It's too late by then as your cartridges are either straight or they aren't..
When you bring loaded cartridge runout into neck turning, or seating, you're really heading away from these individual operations, while generalizing about their actual contributions to runout.
Truly, you can turn and seat perfectly and still produce horribly crooked ammo...
It's another subject altogether
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  #17  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:32 PM
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Re: Best Neck Turning Tool

"For one, neck turning has nothing to do with adjusting either concentricity or runout. It's purpose is soley to produce necks at a desired thickness. Fireforming takes care of the rest."

Surely no one believes turning a neck will, by that fact, straighten it any. I hope we all realize it requires firing and resizing at least once after turning before we can realise any reduction in runout. That said, achieving a specific "desired thickness" is only meaningful with a tight necked chamber that won't accept a normal loaded neck; SAAMI chambered rifles, factory or custom, just don't need that. Therefore, the single purpose of turning necks for most of us becomes the pursuit of straighter necks, not obtaining a given thickness.

Virtually all factory cases have inconsistances in both the thickness and concentricity of the inside vs. the outside of those necks. Those inconsistances prevent straight seating. Reaming the insides can't fix it but properly skim turning the outsides frequently will.

The simpliest case holder and spinner we can obtain is an electric drill chuck large enough to grip the head of our cases. A 1/2" drill chuck will work for most rifle cartridges other than magnums. Set the speed to a low rpm while turning.

Ref. my choice of the Forster HOT-100 neck turner, I don't "support what I have"; to the contrary, I have what I support. Meaning I knew exactly what I was getting when I purchased it. I didn't just buy something and then try to get others to follow my tool based on an accidental choice. But I believe that does drive a lot of people's reloading tool recommendations.
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  #18  
Old 10-19-2010, 09:47 AM
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Re: Best Neck Turning Tool

you can run just about anykind of arbor, mandrel, ball sizer, or whatever thru the neck, but in the end they will simply follow any error already there unless that body of the case is used to base everything off of. A fire formed case is reasonably strait, but never perfect. Take that fireformed case and run it thru a good full length sizer, and you got a different ball game. It's now about 98% as good as the die is machined, and more than likely better than the chamber the case came out of. Pushing the error in the case wall to the O.D. is correct, and that's why you shave the necks. Otherwise the I.D. will be out of wack everytime you run a bushing over the neck
gary
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  #19  
Old 10-19-2010, 01:09 PM
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Re: Best Neck Turning Tool

"...Otherwise the I.D. will be out of wack everytime you run a bushing over the neck"

With that, I fully agree. So, IMHO, bushing sizers suc. They work well for people who have very tight neck chambers that only require sizing down a couple-three thou but that's the BR group, not for those of us who load for sloppy fitted SAAMI chambers! Bushing sizers were developed by the BR shooters for their special needs. Then others of us who think if it works for those guys it should work for us too. The die makers know better, that's why they didn't make them earlier, but if we want to buy them the factories will sure make and sell 'em to us!

I believe it can be demonstrated that the Lee Collet neck sizer is the best NECK die available for SAAMI chambers. Used with a body die, it could easily be the total sizer system for most of us.

Last edited by boomtube; 10-19-2010 at 01:12 PM.
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  #20  
Old 10-19-2010, 01:42 PM
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Re: Best Neck Turning Tool

I have found one of the best "neck turning tools" to be a really hot red head with big boobs!!
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  #21  
Old 10-20-2010, 10:29 AM
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Re: Best Neck Turning Tool

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomtube View Post
"...Otherwise the I.D. will be out of wack everytime you run a bushing over the neck"

With that, I fully agree. So, IMHO, bushing sizers suc. They work well for people who have very tight neck chambers that only require sizing down a couple-three thou but that's the BR group, not for those of us who load for sloppy fitted SAAMI chambers! Bushing sizers were developed by the BR shooters for their special needs. Then others of us who think if it works for those guys it should work for us too. The die makers know better, that's why they didn't make them earlier, but if we want to buy them the factories will sure make and sell 'em to us!

I believe it can be demonstrated that the Lee Collet neck sizer is the best NECK die available for SAAMI chambers. Used with a body die, it could easily be the total sizer system for most of us.
In my own opinion, if you like to neck size with a bushing you really ought to go ahead and clean up the necks for at least a 75% contact area with the bushing (I usually go 85% to 90%, but that's just me). I do find that I load better ammo when I neck size in my arbor press. Not alot better, but still better. I don't do benchrest anymore, but may get back into the game in the future (600 yard).

I'm glad you having good luck with the Lee Collet dies! I have two sets here that just didn't work out for me. The sizer could have been made to work with some mods to it, but I don't have access to a Sunnen hone anymore. I was not even slightly impressed with the seaters, and went right back to the Forster seater. Still I'm going to give that Lee set one more chance to see if I can make them work with my Lo-Wall in .223. The 22-250 set is now a paper weight (an as new paper weight at that). Only time will tell
gary
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