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Belted magnums reloading, from scratch

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  #29  
Unread 08-09-2009, 11:13 PM
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Re: Belted magnums reloading, from scratch

From a previous post on another forum:

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Some questions from woods:

Would the die have any advantage if you are not having any problem chambering reloaded rounds?
Sooner or later you will have trouble getting your belted magnum handloads to chamber. It's just a matter of time. Another sypmtom you may encounter is a "fail to extract". This is caused by jamming an excessively wide handload into a tapered chamber. (works just like a milling bit with a morse taper). I've seen a lot of these handloads that required a mallet to open the bolt. The Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die will also solve that problem.


Does the die do anything to alleviate the tendency of the belted magnums to develop case head separation and how does it do that?

No .... because 99% of case head separations are caused by excessive headspace. That's a completely different problem.


If your die sizes the whole case smaller everytime then doesn't that mean that the brass is "worked" more with each firing?

No. The Belted Magum Collet Resizing Die doesn't resize the whole case. It just resizes the pressure ring "just above the belt". It resizes to the SAAMI spec minimum dimension, and it is only required on cases that won't fit into the top of our die.


Why don't you make a collet for a regular (30-06 type case)? Doesn't the same situation at the pressure ring present itself?

There is no need for this type of extra resizing on non-belted calibers. Unlike cases like the 30-06, the belt on any belted case will limit the travel of any conventional FL resizing die.

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Here you clearly say that your die does nothing to alleviate case head separations, so I would assume that the use of your die is only to make cases that are hard to chamber, easier to chamber. So if I am reloading for 19 different guns that have belts and have never encountered the problem, would the die have any other uses that would justify their cost?
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  #30  
Unread 08-10-2009, 08:41 AM
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Re: Belted magnums reloading, from scratch

Headspace separation is a separate issue caused only by excessive headspace. Our Digital Headspace Gauge solves that problem. Keep your headspace clearance at -.002" or less and inspect your cases, and you'll never see a headspace separation.

Our Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die resizes the case just above the belt, and it ensures that your handloads will always chamber without requiring force. The top of this die also works as a chamber width gauge. It shows you when the "extra" resizing is needed. When it requires force to chamber a round, it puts real pressure on your bolt lugs. That's not good.

Eventually . . . . sooner or later . . . . everyone loading belted magnum calibers will notice tight fitting handloads. Some handloads will chamber with force, some won't chamber at all. The thing that confuses shooters about this symptom is that it never shows up until after a case is reloaded at least 2 or 3 times. Besides ensuring 100% reliable chambering, our die allows shooters to get about 5 times more case life . . . . and this one collet die works on almost all belted calibers. It pays for itself quickly.

- Innovative

Last edited by larrywillis; 08-10-2009 at 08:48 AM. Reason: I almost forgot to answer your last question
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  #31  
Unread 08-10-2009, 10:52 AM
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Re: Belted magnums reloading, from scratch

Quote:
Originally Posted by woods View Post
...
Here you clearly say that your die does nothing to alleviate case head separations, so I would assume that the use of your die is only to make cases that are hard to chamber, easier to chamber. So if I am reloading for 19 different guns that have belts and have never encountered the problem, would the die have any other uses that would justify their cost?
Woods,

Once your belted magnum cases start getting tight to chamber, send them to me and I'll resize them with the collet die and use them some more. If you've never seen this problem, how many times are you reusing your brass before it gets recycled?

AJ
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  #32  
Unread 08-10-2009, 11:31 AM
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Re: Belted magnums reloading, from scratch

I've actually seen this same phenomenon happen with some 30-06 cases. I had some sitting here that had been through one of my guns 5x's. They were still in good shape and a friend wanted to try one of my recipes in his '06. He didn't have any spare brass. I loaded up 5 rounds in that brass (thinking we'd toss em after our experiment) and we couldn't chamber them in his gun. These had been fl sized and after taking some measurements on this brass comparing to other brass that chambered like butter in his gun we found it was about .0005" thicker just up the rim....like what I've seen on belted mags. Never imagined it would happen on a non belted magnum but my experience with those had me looking in the right spot right away....BTW...that brass chambered in my gun like butter and shot great!
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  #33  
Unread 08-10-2009, 02:17 PM
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Re: Belted magnums reloading, from scratch

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Peacock View Post
Woods,

Once your belted magnum cases start getting tight to chamber, send them to me and I'll resize them with the collet die and use them some more. If you've never seen this problem, how many times are you reusing your brass before it gets recycled?

AJ
Hey AJ, I will reload a belted case 7 times and then develop a new set. Again, the reason I discard and start with new is NOT because they have become hard to chamber but because of the POSSIBILITY of a case head separation. Brass is much cheaper than guns or physical parts of my body. Even if I were to use the Innovative die I would still discard the cases after 7 firings because they do nothing to alleviate head clearance stretching on new cases or thinning at the web for any reason.


kraky, somewhere in the previous postings I have seen where the bulge is attributed to regular dies pushing brass toward the belt. But in your post you say you are getting the same thing in an unbelted case. How could that be? Could it be that bulges and such are a result of die and chamber internal dimensions? I have a 280AI that has a hard time chambering after the 4th round because of the bulge at the pressure ring. It is a direct result of a tight chamber and a Redding Body Die that is not small enough to size the pressure ring area. Eventually I will get Redding to make me one a bit smaller and I will be good to go. If Innovative actually made one of the collet thingies for an unbelted case I would buy one for that caliber to alleviate my one problem. I suspect if someone runs across a chambering problem occasionally then the cause may be similar. If you need it, buy it, but I don't understand why you would buy one before you know you need it. And if you did buy one, naturally you would use it just to prove how right you were.
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Last edited by woods; 08-10-2009 at 02:20 PM.
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  #34  
Unread 08-10-2009, 02:42 PM
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Re: Belted magnums reloading, from scratch

Woods...

I guess in my case with the '06 its just a case of not using brass from one gun to another. And, that in itself might be another reason to own one of the innovative dies. You can buy used brass, or pick up range brass, or sell brass to someone and be confident that you have returned it to near factory dimensions.
Re your idea with the slighlty smaller body die...might that not actually make the problem worse as it will push the brass down even more??
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  #35  
Unread 08-10-2009, 03:07 PM
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Re: Belted magnums reloading, from scratch

Woods ........

When resized incorrectly, ANY rifle case (belted or not) can develope a bulge above the web. I've seen this quite often with custom chambers. Every case separation I've ever seen was caused by excessive headspace. As I've said a jillion times before, headspace is a separate issue. This appears to not be well understood by many shooters. (No implications here ... )

Have you ever noticed that case separations always happen just above the web? That's because this part of the case is weakened (and thinned) the most. Every time a case is fired, it stretches to fit the chamber. The problem gets worse as the shoulder continues to be pushed back too far. A case will eventually bulge at its weakest location during the reloading process. My website shows how our Digital Headspace Gauge solves the headspace problem. [VERY SIMPLE]

- Innovative

Last edited by larrywillis; 08-10-2009 at 03:10 PM. Reason: Spelling ...
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