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3 shot groups with two together and one flyer?

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Unread 09-05-2008, 11:05 PM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 32
3 shot groups with two together and one flyer?

I have a Remington Model 700 CDL Stainless Fluted in 300 WSM with an HS Precision stock. Using a Leupold VX III 4.5-14 scope with Talley rings and bases. Factory trigger is turned down around 2.5 lbs. Feels crisp although I would definitely like to get a Jewel trigger and be down around 1.5 lbs.

The gun likes to shoot two right next to eachother or almost on top of eachother and one goes a fly.

I have shot two different 1/2" 3 shot groups. Quite a few 3/4" groups. But now groups have started to go around 1 to 1.25".

One of the loads that shot 1/2" was 180 grain SST with 68 gr IMR 4831 and 215M primers. I've tried to repeat this and keep getting the first two shots almost on top and then one 1 to 1.5" away. Bullet is around .020" off the lands. Go further or closer?

I've tried waiting till the barrel gets cold and I've tried shooting right away. Temps between 55 and 90 deg with the same results. Tried with a clean barrel. Dirty barrel. Same results.

Go to different load? Fine tune, go up or down a .5 a grain? I was kind of liking this load as velocity has been chonoed at around 3050 fps.

I have several other loads that like to do the same thing.

In Montana temps can definitely get down to around zero during Elk season and I've been told the magnum primers perform better in cold temps. Any truth to this? Or should I give 210M or BR2 primers a shot? I have both. I also have WLRM and Rem 9 1/2.

Trimming cases to 2.090" with RCBS power trimmer. Using lyman digital scale/measurer.

Maybe needs to be recrowned?

I would guess rounds I've got are around 400.

I want to get a Sako ejector done, and now I'm thinking I just need to rebarrel at the same time?
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Unread 09-05-2008, 11:31 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hermiston, Oregon
Posts: 2,030
Re: 3 shot groups with two together and one flyer?

Flyers usually are 1 of 2 things, not the right seating depth, so try a few different seating depths, and the powder charge just isn't right. Go up or down .5g and try a few groups. This has been my experience anyways. You'll know when you get the right load when your consistently getting .5-.75 groups and no flyers.

Also could just be an "off" day of shooting for you??

Factory barrels are notorious for throwing "flyers" though...
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Unread 09-06-2008, 12:21 AM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 32
Re: 3 shot groups with two together and one flyer?

Last two or 3 times out have gone this way.

I also have a Tikka Varmint .223. Been shooting groups in the .18-.375" with that.
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Unread 09-06-2008, 08:20 AM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 63
Re: 3 shot groups with two together and one flyer?

Is the rifle bedded and barrel completely free floated? Are the action screws torqued and tight?

If you feel it's the load then I would do as already suggested and play with seating depth and powder charge. That said, I would be very careful if you decide to go up in powder charge. According to Lyman 48, Nosler #6, Speer, Hodgdon and Hornady you are already over max, both in powder charge and velocity. If you are also running close to the lands an increase in COAL could cause you some pressure issues.

Be safe and let us know how it turns out.
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Unread 09-06-2008, 10:13 AM
Gold Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: York, Pa.
Posts: 611
How many firing on those cases??

So I'll go a different route and ask how many firing on the cases and what make?

Are they nickel plated? If you have nickel cases toss them!

If you have more than 3-4 firings on the brass cases try annealing them, I bet you find something out. I have found that annealing after 4 firings my groups tighten right back up and the flyers go away provided the load is correct which you feel it is.

Is it always the 3rd shot that's the flyer?

Are you neck sizing or full length and how far are you bumping the shoulder if you are FL sizing?
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Unread 09-06-2008, 10:32 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 230
Re: 3 shot groups with two together and one flyer?

just guessing here, if it's throwing high, could be the scope. Left and right could be bedding. Oddly enough I just went through this same thing with an encore barrel in .280 Rem. I ruled out the bedding by having Stratton custom make me a bedded forend. It helped a little but still did same thing just to lesser degree. I changed scopes, still same thing. I played with different loads.....still no joy. Out of frustration, I ordered a fire lapping kit from Tubbs. Problem disappeared. Cold bbl. dirty bbl., clean bbl, warm bbl, the flyer is gone. My particular problem I feel was tool marks left in the bbl from the factory. I lapped them out, and my problem went away. Most of your custom barrels are pre-lapped from the factory. However, most production guns aren't. This may be worth looking into. Some disagree with fire lapping as they say it erodes the throat. IMHO David Tubbs obviously has an edge. His record speaks for itself. If it's good enough for an internationally renown shooter it may be worth trying. Understand I did this as a last result. I am happy with the results. My flyer is gone. Confidence is back in the rifle. Just something to ponder.
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Unread 09-06-2008, 09:51 PM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 32
Re: 3 shot groups with two together and one flyer?

What is the best way to do the annealing? Is there an oven or some procedure for it?

Never annealed before?

What is the annealing supposed to help?

Ok, fired a few more groups today and had some success. Same load, 68 gr IMR 4831, 215M, 2.845 seating depth on 180 SSTs and 2.870 with 180 Interbonds. These are both around .020" off the lands.

Shot one .6" group with the SSTs, with Nickel cases. Shot one .75" group with Interbonds, Federal cases. Velocity was between 3020 and 3050 fps.

I think this my hunting load. Going to give the SSTs a try on Elk and Mule deer. The SSTs have been the most accurate bullet in my Model 70 270 WSM as well as Weatherby Vanguard 300 WSM. I want to see how they hold up

I've run the Tubbs Final Finish kit through my gun. Seemed to work nicely. Barrel is easer to clean. Accuracy improvement was marginal.

Screws are tight on the action. HS won't warranty stocks if you glass bed them. Barrel is completely free floated. Done the dollar bill test with hot and cold barrel.

I do not keep track of case firings. I have over 500 brass and just keep recycling them.

I neck size.

I use some Nickel Plated. Most are regular brass, Winchester and Federal.

As far as safety there is zero pressure sign. No ejector mark. No flattened primer. No hard extraction. Brass looks better then factory federal ammo which really flattens primers. Also have split about 3 or 4 factory cases in two different guns. Never ever had a problem with my reloads.

I'm a grain under max load according to Swift, 1 gr for Sciroccos, .5 gr for A-Frame. 1 gr under in Barnes. .5 gr over according to Nosler. .8 gr over for Hornady.

I feel I am right in the ballpark.

Last edited by GlennRMK; 09-06-2008 at 10:00 PM.
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