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210 bergers blowing up?? help 30-378 wby

 
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Old 05-15-2006, 07:23 AM
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Re: 210 bergers blowing up?? help 30-378 wby

Give Richard Graves at Wildcat Bullets call and talk to him about the 210 ulds
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Old 05-15-2006, 07:33 AM
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Re: 210 bergers blowing up?? help 30-378 wby

wild, I will do that thanks
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Old 05-15-2006, 08:16 AM
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Re: 210 bergers blowing up?? help 30-378 wby

Roygeterdone,

How far are you seating the Bergers off the lands if any? I suspect if you are shooting out of a factory Wby you have a healthy dose of freebore to jump to the lands.

If this is the case, you will tear up the Berger jackets very quickly with this jump to the lands. It has to do with the bullet gainining linear velocity before it begins to rotate.

What happens is when the bullets slams into the lands, the front of the bullet begins to rotate but the rear of the heavy long bullet resists this rotation and the bullet is wringed out like a wet towel.

This dramatically weakens the jacket core bond and will at least degrade accuracy and in worst case will cause bullet failure.

If your jumping to the lands I suspect this is your problem.

If you seat the Bergers to touch or to be slightly into the lands this generally limits this problem up to about 3200-3250 fps but above that you will again see accuracy problems rear their head with the Bergers.

I would agree, a wildcat or sierra bullet will probably solve most of your problems but even then, if your jumping significantly to the lands you may have issues with these bullets as well at higher velocities though.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Old 05-15-2006, 09:52 AM
bsb bsb is offline
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Re: 210 bergers blowing up?? help 30-378 wby

Fifty your right about the jump I dont think I could seat the bullet long eneogh to even come close to the lands,
at least I could not on my 300wby and the 378 I believe is the same way,
you gave an excellent point tho, I think the freebore
may just be no good for these bullets. I have not talked to berger yet but hopfully within the hour.
I really cant thank you guys eneouph.
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Old 05-15-2006, 11:41 AM
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Re: 210 bergers blowing up?? help 30-378 wby

I just talked to berger (not Walt) the bullet tech said it was right on the edge of coming apart all time he thought,
He recomended dropping a 1/2 grain and seeing what happens
I have my suspisions tho,
He told me that weatherby put the free bore in the rifles
for safety reasons I thought it was for velocity!
He also said the closer the bullet was to the lands the faster the bullet would go because of more pressure, I thought I tested that theory the other week and found the oppisite
the further away the bullet from the lands the more veocity you got! especially on the weatherbys
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:13 PM
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Re: 210 bergers blowing up?? help 30-378 wby

Roygeterdone,

The Berger rep is giving you just a partial portion of the actual trueth without qualifying his comments. Let me see if I can explain his points a bit.

I would agree with him that these bullets are on the ragged edge of staying together but this is not because of the velocity or pressure, its because of the jump into the lands which is tearing the bullets jackets free of the lead core. Nothing more nothing less. If you seated the bullets 5 thou into the lands your problem I am sure would go away until you get to the 3200-3250 fps range. After this accuracy will generally start to suffer.

In my opinion, dropping 1/2 grain will not amount to Jack Squat in a case the size of the 30-378, bad advice in my opinion, will not help your problem.

As far as the freebore in the Wby rifles. This is not a safety issue. It is a chambering method which flattens the initital pressure spike when a round is fired in the rifle. It does this because the bullet gains velocity before it hits the origins of the rifling. Because the bullet has gained significant velocity, there is less resistance when the bullet encounters and is engraved by the rifling. Thus it will lower chamber pressure and flatten the pressure spike.

This allows you to do several things, mainly, add more powder to your charge without increasing pressure significantly.

This is why if you take a factory rifle chambered in say 30-378 and compare it to a short throated custom rifle in 30-378, the Wby rifle will generally produce significantly more velocity for a given barrel length.

Simply put, you are correct, Weatherbys claim to fame was hyper velocity in those early days. He got this and kept pressures in a high but usible range by freeboring his chambers. It is an attempt to get every last fps of velocity possible out of a given cartridge but often at the expense of accuracy.

As to getting higher velocity with the bullets seated closer to the lands. This is true to a point. If you take a given max load developed with the bullet 0.200" off the lands you will get X PSI of pressure. If you take that same load but now seat the bullet so that it is touching the lands, pressure will increase dramatically because the freebore situation has been removed.

That comment is concerned with using the same load for both seating depths.

TO more accurately discribe things, if you take one seating depth, say 0.200" off the lands again, and develope the load to max pressures you will get X fps.

Now if you take a seating depth of say touching the lands and work that load up to the same max pressure as the previous freebore load, Your top velocity will be lower simply because your pressure spike will be steeper and you will reach max pressures sooner then you will with a freebore situation.

So while there is some trueth to his comments, they are really only half trueths.

On average, freebore will increase top possible velocity but again generally at the expense of accuracy.

One other tip to remember, when using a heavy thin jacketed bullet. The farther away from the lands you seat the bullet, the harder it is on the bullet to survive the launch. The closer the bullet is seated into the lands the easier it is on the bullet.

The reason is simple, if a thin jacketed bullet is seated to touch or even softly into the lands, when it is fired, it will begin rotating the second it begins to travel down the barrel. This basically eliminates the "Wringing" of the bullet and it will survive much higher launch velocities.

Good Shooting, hope this murkies the waters even more!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Kirby Allen(50)
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Old 05-15-2006, 04:02 PM
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Re: 210 bergers blowing up?? help 30-378 wby

Kirby you are awsome and I couldn't have said it better [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
I talked with walt berger he is leaning toward a dirty barrel, (Heck of a nice guy might I add)here is what he sent back to me in the email he added some qustions to my post but i could not get them high lighted on here sorry.

A little statement about this cartridge. It is a BIG overbore cartridge using a lot of slow burning powder that results in short barrel life. How short depends on the manner in which it is used. If the barrel is a factory contour and shots are fired in rather rapid sequence barrel life will be SHORT. If the barrel has not been properly cleaned and copper and powder fouling allowed to build up bullet damage will be excessive and the integrity of the bullet will be destroyed and their WILL be in-flight bullet failure and you are experiencing in flight bullet failure. The 30/378 has been used in 1000 yard bench rest matches with some success. They utilize massive diameter barrels some 30 plus inches long and the total rifle can weigh in excess of 50 pounds. Barrel life is short and of no real concern to most of these shooters as they will be changed after a few hundred rounds.

With the above out of the road some comments, questions and observations below:

This is the deal, me and my Brother has been trying to get dialed in for 1000yrds, we loaded some 210 bergers last week in his 30-378 and found a good load with 105Gr of retumbo (shot probably 20 into paper just fine) Is the rifle a factory rifle and was the barrel clean when you started your testing to find "that good load" and was the rifle cleaned (and how was it cleaned) after the 20 shots to determine a good load?

with no pressure signs so he loaded up 60 and went to the
range (field) He changed his scope to his other 8.5x25

leupold so we sighted in at 200 yrds well we got it on a 8" How many shots did it take to get on the paper plate, after the scope change, and did you have any bullet failures during this sight in procedure?

paper plate did 2 shots about a 11/2" apart the next shot
hit nothing no plate or plywood but my boy said he saw
somthing hit about 20' low we thought huh whats the deal!

so we started shooting at 1000' yrds he missed 1st 2 and the dust boiled up each miss as it is in a dry field At what distance did the dust boil up and was it close to the bullets path to the target?
then he hit the plate 3 strait let the gun cooldown and tryed it again, this time nothing no dust or nothing but a wiered You were shooting over a dusty field from muzzle to 1000 yards and you did not see any bullet impact in the field?

twang sound he shot again and same thing, so we picked a
little bush about 700yrds same thing no dust or nothing

just wierd twang sound! The so called twang sound could it have been sort of a whistle sound. If a bullet completely bows up it will most likely blow up between 30 and 70 yards was this distance over the dusty field? so I shot my 168Bergers (RUM) at bush
and the dust flew big time. well all his new brass he just Is this the same brass and load that you used to sighted the rifle in on the paper plate?
loaded had pressure signs on the base A 1/8" round imprint Was this imprint from the ejector in the bolt?

same load as the weeks before it was about 70 degress here today and I am telling you the bullet is going crazy sometimes! It chronoed at 3115 (210 bergers) the week before

so why is it showing the pressure signs could be temp etc I know,but why are those bullets not making the flight? Explain your reloading procedure and is it the same as the cartridge you used to work up your load. Yes, temperature does make a difference what was the temperature when you were working up your load?
And one time when He was shooting at the 1000Yrd plate we saw some dirt (about like a dirt clod Threw) being kicked up about a 100 yrs away and the twang sound. when there was a twang sound there was no dust or nothing at targets! when there was no twang sound the dirt flew like a tornado! This dust you saw at about 100 yards was most likely a complete bullet failure.

please help? we are calling walt berger in morning.
Yes the loads were a little hot for some reason, new cases

or temp or different powder batch, but is it normal to have bullets go bye bye with a little extra pressure? Since the back of the case should an indentation it is a sign of pressure but I am not sure this is all of the problem. Did the bolt handle lift hard when you ejected the fired round?

Dont get me wrong any signs of pressure is unexceptable for us.

Please help walt Some questions below

How many rounds has been fired through this rifle?

Was it purchased new?

Does it have a muzzle brake?

From the time you worked up your loads till you quit shooting how many times was the rifle cleaned?

What kind of reloading equipment are you using?

Do you measure or weigh your powder?

Were the case mouths of the new brass chamfered?

What was the cartridge over all length?

Did you pierce any primers and what primers were you using.

Thanks for your help on this.
Walt Berger
Berger Bullets
Technical Advisor

Phone No 623 587 9363
PS One problem with the phone is my hearing is very bad and I do have a hard time understand some of our customers when they call.
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