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Totally Over My Head

 
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  #85  
Old 07-24-2009, 09:35 AM
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Re: Totally Over My Head

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
OK, been a little busy last couple of days which is a good thing.... Soooo... barrel life... There's no debate that the 308 has a great barrel life. That's because it doesn't use a lot of powder which means it doesn't have great velocity which means it's not going to have as much reach down range as a cartridge that does have higher velocities and burns more powdwer and has shorter barrel lifes. Everything is a trade off. The question is were does one's priorities lie? The 300 WSM has very good barrel life and from what I've read up to 4000 plus rounds, based on a report of a BR shooter win a competition with one with 4000 plus rounds down the tube. For most members in this forum, that kind of barrel life would last a lifetime of shooting from one rifle.

BTW Slafav, this is not some attempt to sway your decision. You like the 308 so go for it, use it well and be happy with it. It is a good cartridge. I am just adressing some issues that I think have been over emphasized for whomever may be reading.

OK... next thing that keeps coming up is cost.... The 308 is less expensive to shoot.

Let's look at the costs.

Cost of rifle... same....$1000-$1500
Cost of scope... same....$600-$1500
Cost of good rings and bases... same... $200-$300
Cost of bi-pod... same.... $100
Cost of range finder... same... $600-$1000
Cost of misc other stuff... same....

Cost of factrory ammo....

I'm guessing A premium bullet in a premium load is probably the choice for LRH shooting. So, when checking Midway prices and availablity for apples vs apples, the first thing I looked for was Fed Premium 180 AB's. there was no offering for that bullet/load in the 308 (which would be my first slection for trial in factory a 308 cal cartridge). So, I looked at the Fed Prem 180 Speer Trophy Bonded tip.... 308 - $43.79.... 300 WSM - $49.99. That's about a 12% price difference for about a 30-40% effective range difference. So c'mon guys, save it with the cost savings, OK.

Which brings me to the next cost break down....

Reloading... which is the way any SERIOUS long ranger/BR/F class shooter is going to go...

Reloading equipment and dies, etc. ... $1000 minimum
Bullets... same
Primers... same
Powder... 45 gr vs 65gr of powder which works out very roughly to about $.10 per round difference (compared to performance difference)
Brass... Apples to apples again 100 cases of Norma... 308 - 498.99... 300 WSM - $109.99

Where is the big cost savings???

Now, you can get Lapua in 308 and that is a good thing, and it only costs $79. Thats a nice plus for the 308.

Anyway... overall cost saving when buying a 308... less than 5%, maybe closer to 2%.. unless you include barrel changes... every 4000 for the 300 WSM and every ??? for the 308....

I could go on... but hopefully you get it.... In my book you get more LR bang for the buck with the 300 WSM

Good shooting

-MR

Ok, just for starters, the cost of rifles is not the same. You can find any rifle in 308, not so for the 300 WSM.

If he wanted to get a hevy barreled factory rifle, which is what I would suggest for LRH, Remington 700 has these:
VLS
SPS Varmint
Tactical Target
VTR
XCR

These range in MSRP from $665 for the SPS Varmint to $1,972.00 for the Tactical Target.

All these are available in 308 but not 300WSM. Which means he can have a good shooting rifle in 308 for about $650 (street price). Maybe he can find something in another brand, but we have to agree that Remington 700 is the way to go, specially if he wants to customize it later.

As far as ammunition goes:
300 WSM = 49.99/20 = 2.4995 X 4000 rounds = $9,998.00
308 Win. = 43.79/20 = 2.1895 X 4000 rounds = $8,768.00

After 4000 rounds he would have saved $1,240.00 dollars going with the 308, at which point the 300 WSM will have to be rebarreled and the 308 still has a long ways to go.

But he can also buy 308 Match ammo from black hills loaded with 175 Sierra Matchkings for about $28.00, so:
308 Win. = 28.00/20 = 1.4 X 4000 rounds = $5,600.00

That's $4,398.00 savings over a 300WSM using factory ammo, again at which point the 300WSM would have to be rebarreled.

Now the 300WSM uses about 20 grains per round more powder than the 308. Over 4000 rounds that's 80,000 grains = 11.42 lbs. powder.

11.42 X $25 = $285.50 in extra powder.
Now brass, you can get more life out of a 308 case than a 300WSM, plus like you said, Lapua brass is available for the 308, which it of much better quality.

Now if handloads are used, he would save at least $500.00 - $600.00 over 4000 rounds (powder and brass), again, at which point the 300WSM will have to be rebarreled!

In conclusion, he would save at least $1,600.00 going with a 308 Win. over 4000 rounds if he handloads (powder, brass, barrel, rifle) and much more if he shoots factory ammo.

And as far as 30% - 40% extended range, at 500 yards it doesn't really matter how far the bullet travels after it has gone through a deer.

-X3M

Last edited by X3MHunter; 07-24-2009 at 09:45 AM.
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  #86  
Old 07-25-2009, 08:32 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: South of Canada and North of Wyoming
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Re: Totally Over My Head

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by X3MHunter View Post
Ok, just for starters, the cost of rifles is not the same. You can find any rifle in 308, not so for the 300 WSM.

If he wanted to get a hevy barreled factory rifle, which is what I would suggest for LRH, Remington 700 has these:
VLS
SPS Varmint
Tactical Target
VTR
XCR

These range in MSRP from $665 for the SPS Varmint to $1,972.00 for the Tactical Target.

All these are available in 308 but not 300WSM. Which means he can have a good shooting rifle in 308 for about $650 (street price). Maybe he can find something in another brand, but we have to agree that Remington 700 is the way to go, specially if he wants to customize it later.

As far as ammunition goes:
300 WSM = 49.99/20 = 2.4995 X 4000 rounds = $9,998.00
308 Win. = 43.79/20 = 2.1895 X 4000 rounds = $8,768.00

After 4000 rounds he would have saved $1,240.00 dollars going with the 308, at which point the 300 WSM will have to be rebarreled and the 308 still has a long ways to go.

But he can also buy 308 Match ammo from black hills loaded with 175 Sierra Matchkings for about $28.00, so:
308 Win. = 28.00/20 = 1.4 X 4000 rounds = $5,600.00

That's $4,398.00 savings over a 300WSM using factory ammo, again at which point the 300WSM would have to be rebarreled.

Now the 300WSM uses about 20 grains per round more powder than the 308. Over 4000 rounds that's 80,000 grains = 11.42 lbs. powder.

11.42 X $25 = $285.50 in extra powder.
Now brass, you can get more life out of a 308 case than a 300WSM, plus like you said, Lapua brass is available for the 308, which it of much better quality.

Now if handloads are used, he would save at least $500.00 - $600.00 over 4000 rounds (powder and brass), again, at which point the 300WSM will have to be rebarreled!

In conclusion, he would save at least $1,600.00 going with a 308 Win. over 4000 rounds if he handloads (powder, brass, barrel, rifle) and much more if he shoots factory ammo.

And as far as 30% - 40% extended range, at 500 yards it doesn't really matter how far the bullet travels after it has gone through a deer.

-X3M
I feel like I'm playing ping pong... gotta get the last word ya know

When I said the price of the rifle was the same, I meant you aren't going top pay a different price for a different cal. If you buy an XCR 300 WSM, it will cost the same as an XCR 308 Win. Same rifle, same quality, same price. There is a better selction of makes and models for the 308. And I agree, the Rem is the best as far as after market parts availability. Howa's and and Vangurds (Howa action) will fit Rem action bases and rings and also have a good after market part market. The top factory rifles on my list would be Sendero (used for ~ $900), Sub MOA Vanguard ~ $850 new (They come with a target with bullet holes in it), Tikka ~ $600, or older Sakos (model 75 or AV), or a Howa ~ $600. Some of these dont have the as many after market options, but there are options for them if you shop around. I've read one well known smith in here say he is very impressed with the Howa action's for being a factory action.

Anyway, same rifle, same quality, same cost.

I'm glad you tallied the factory ammo cost so Slafav can see it. Hand loading would save a heck of a lot more than $500- $600 for over 4000 rounds if he handloaded.

Each round would cost....

~ $.05 or less for brass (after 20 or more firings)
~ $.20-25 for powder
~ $.03-04 for primers
~ $.20- $1.00 + for bullets, Accubonds and Bergers would go for about $.40-.50 ea

Average cost of a handloaded round would be about $0.80 - about one third the cost of premium factory ammo. After 1000 rounds it would pay for the basic reloading equipment, after about 2000 rounds it would pay for some more advanced reloading equipment and after 4000 rounds it would pay for some custom upgrades to a factory rifle. Now I have mentioned monetary savings, but the biggest benefit is tayloring precision ammunition for "your rifle" and to "your requirements", not to mention getting a real good education in the process. Factory ammo is simply not an option for consistant LR shooting.

$285.00 in powder savings over 4000 rounds is peanuts ($3200.00 overall cost) when considering the performance difference.

So after you tally ALL the costs, there really aint that much difference until you start getting to the really big stuff.

It all comes down to priority....

Performance
Recoil
Factory ammo availability & costs (should not even be a LR priority consideration)
Factory rifle offerings
Costs
Platform for customizing

Quote:
And as far as 30% - 40% extended range, at 500 yards it doesn't really matter how far the bullet travels after it has gone through a deer.
You're right.... not at 500 yds. But when someone shoots a deer at 500 yds, he will probably want to shoot one at 600 and then 800 and then......

Ok, this has been fun, but now I'm off to some flyfishing in YNP for a few days and it dont get much better than that

-MR

Last edited by MontanaRifleman; 07-25-2009 at 08:41 PM.
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  #87  
Old 07-25-2009, 09:51 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 214
Re: Totally Over My Head

Well, have fun fishing. Like I said before, if we were discussing long range rifles you and I would agree totally because you and I shoot basically the same caliber, you a 300WSM, me the 300 Win. Mag. but again, he only wants to shoot 500 yards, so that's the reason I keep disagreeing with you. And yes, it has been fun, I kinda wish we would have discussed this over a couple of beers, maybe some day. Also in another post I noticed that you and I do the same kinda work (concrete and metal buildings), small world. Well, see you around, in the meantime, I'll help Slafav out with anything he needs.

I have no doubt in my mind that after Slafav gets good enough with his 308 and gets a few long range kills under his belt he's going to want to stretch out his ranges and I'm sure he will be looking to buy another rifle at that point, and I'll be the first to suggest the 300WSM, but not now, not yet!

-X3M
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