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Thoughts on second LR rifle.

 
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  #1  
Old 10-07-2005, 09:34 PM
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Thoughts on second LR rifle.

All, I've been lurking for a while. Finally registered today and wanted to get your opinion. I did some searching and although I found some info, I've not found everything I was looking for.

I've done a pretty good amount of LR hunting (grew up in Western Colorado). I've been shooting a Rem 700 BDL 7mm rem mag since 1978. This rifle is my current LR rifle. Only the action is original. It has a H-S Precision Kevlar stock, Its been rebarreled (with Remington barrel), Timney trigger, VariX-III 4.5x14 etc. My best 5 shot 200yd group is 5/8". (I don't currently have access to a longer range).

I've taken a handful of Muley's over 500 yds with it (many from 350-450). So I am very comfortable with this rifle for deer, and for hiking.

I've been thinking about getting a 'pure' long range rifle that won't be packed uphill very much. I know some spots in Colorado that are easy to get to but the shots are 600-800 yards (elk hunting). I've shot some elk with the 7mm, but don't like the idea of using it for 'really' long shots for elk.

I'm thinking about a heavy 338RUM, 30" fairly heavy contour barrel (lilja, shilen ...), heavy laminate stock, bipod, NO-BRAKE etc. Goal of this rifle is a 700-800yd Elk rifle.

Here are my questions :

1) Is the 338RUM something that would fit the bill? Other 'better' options? 338-300RUM ??? Is the 338RUM overkill?

2) I don't know anything about the 'right' components for a rifle like this. (I'd like a magazine feed, so if I ever use it for bears). Any recommendations on Action, barrel, total weight etc. would be great.

3) I have absolutely no problem with full house 7mm rem mag recoil in my current medium weight rifle. How heavy would I have to make this 'howitzer' to not go crazy with recoil? (Bullet = 300gr SMK, or equiv).

4) Is 30" barrel overkill? Underkill? etc.

5) What have I missed?

I have a friend that is a Gunsmith, so once I decide what I 'need' err uh 'want', all it will take is $$

I really don't like muzzle brakes, due to the noise and I've had bad experience with getting superb accuracy with rifles that had brakes. I also don't like the muzzle blast/noise for a hunting rifle.

I also reload for everything I own.

Thanks,
AJ
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  #2  
Old 10-07-2005, 10:23 PM
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Re: Thoughts on second LR rifle.

welcome,

The 338 edge(338-300 rum) would be my choice with your requirements. That being said, any thing from a 308 up has been used efectivly on elk at the ranges you will be shooting, just going to be a personal choice.
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  #3  
Old 10-08-2005, 07:01 AM
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Re: Thoughts on second LR rifle.

AJ,

First off, got 700-800 yard elk hunting a 338 is not a nessesity, nothing wrong with it if you can handle the recoil but not totally needed.

Second, not a slam at you at all but you need to realize that compared to a 7mm Rem Mag, you will be increasing recoil levels dramatically going to a 300 gr SMK at 2800-2900 fps. Keep that in mind. Rifle weight will certainly tame these rifles down but you better have a partner to spot your hits at long range because in most cases without a brake you will not see your bullet impacts unless you get your rifle up over 20 lbs and them even with that you will get decent rifle jump.

I will go through your questions and give you my opinion.

1. These are both great rounds for long range hunting of heavy game. I would also consider the 300 RUM. The 300 loaded with the 200 gr Accubond is another extremely deadly long range system that would work great for your stated shooting ranges. Also less recoil with basically the same trajectory out to the ranges you list.

2. You going whole hog on this rifle? If so I would get a BAT or Nesika receiver. H-S Precision Detachable magazine system, I would personally recommend a Lilja but any of the top brands will work, Broughton, Krieger, Rock, etc... Any of the top barrels will produce what you want at this range.

Rifle weight is a personal thing. It really depends on how my recoil you want to deal with. Without a brake understand that you will need more rifle weight to control recoil.

3. Again a full tilt 338 RUM or 338-300 RUM will make the recoil of the 7mm Rem Mag look like a varmint rifle in comparision unless you are used to shooting them. Again, it all depends on what you want. IF you want to be able to snuggle up to the rifle and shoot it with no fear of recoil, I would say you will need to get in the low to mid 20 lb range. Again, this is a personal preference thing so its mainly up to you.

4. a 30" barrel is not overkill with either of these rounds but not needed either. This case capacity with the 338 bore is much more efficent then many would think. 28" is plenty to be honest and even 26" works pretty well.

Again though, there is nothing wrong with a 30" barrel but remember that after 26" you will only gain around 18-20 fps per inch of barrel with this class of round. The shorter the barrel the stiffer the barrel. The stiffer the barrel the more consistant it will be shot to shot.

I would also like to mention that a properly installed brake will have ZERO effect on accuracy. In fact inthe vast majority of my customers, fitting a brake to their heavy recoiling rifles allowed them to shoot the rifles MUCH more accurately.

What brakes have you had experience with on your rifles? Were they actually brakes or did someone port the barrel?

Good Shooting and welcome to LRH!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #4  
Old 10-08-2005, 07:47 AM
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Re: Thoughts on second LR rifle.

Thanks for the responses guys. I really appreciate them.

As far as the brakes, I actually have played with ported guns and have always found them to be somewhat picky about loads. I've played with a lot of non-ported rifles that would shoot well with a wide range of ammo, not with ported rifles though. I'm not talking 1moa and such. I'm talking 1/2moa and less. Maybe brakes are a different animal w/re to accuracy. If so, count me in.

As far as a spotter goes. When I hunt from a LR type position, I almost always have a spotter. To this point, my 2 longest kills just over 800yds Horizontal distance and 500yds where both one shot kills (34" and 28" Muleys). Both with the 7mm. Your points on muzzle jump are certainly valid. When I shot the 34" Muley (820yds) I was able to watch the hit (heart shot !, I should have bought a lotto ticket that morning [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ).

I've debated many times about a .30cal rifle as my 'upgrade'. But never decided it was 'enough' of an upgrade to spend the dough. Now that I've looked at the 338, it seems that it is 'More than Enough' of an upgrade.

As far as the Barrel length, if 26" is long enough, then what would be wrong with finding a Sendero and adding a Brake? That would be much easier than building.

As far as recoil, I'd setup the rifle while using a sissy bag and would only shoot it in hunting situations after that. It definately would not be for a leisurely afternoon of burning powder, I have other rifles that are 'fun' to shoot (.243, 7mm-08, 7mag ...).

If a Sendero would 'do it', what brake would you recommend?

Thanks,
AJ
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  #5  
Old 10-08-2005, 11:49 AM
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Re: Thoughts on second LR rifle.

You could start with a sendero see what it shoots like and go from there.
AS far as a brake get a holland Q/D brake

Kirby could install it for you as well.
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  #6  
Old 10-08-2005, 12:43 PM
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Re: Thoughts on second LR rifle.

You might take a look at the 30-378Wby with a 30 inch barrel, a brake and about 12-15 pounds of weight shooting a 240 grain Sierra match King with a BC of 0.711. It is still trucking at 1500 yds.

Another good option would be to take a look at the 7MM Allen Mag when it is up and running with a 30 inch barrel and 200 gr wildcats. It appears that it will be good out to 1200-1300 yds for elk..
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  #7  
Old 10-08-2005, 01:18 PM
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Re: Thoughts on second LR rifle.

AJ,

With the Sendero its certainly possible to get a factory Sendero that will offer you what you are looking for as far as accuracy at this range. Many of them shoot extremely well.

Others though, sadly should never make it out of the factory as they machining quality is less them many high school shop programs are putting out!!! This is not a slam to highschool kids starting to machine, its a slam to Remington for letting their quality control go to hell!!

Its simply a crap shoot with a factory rifle. In my honest opinion, about 20% of the factory Senderos are capable of consistantly holding sub moa groups at 800 yards and thats with top quality ammunition and top shooters which if you have taken game out to 800 yards with one shot kills you are a fine shot.

The difference compared to a full custom rifle is simply this, you know what you will get for your X amount of dollars, with the factory rifle you have to wait and see what you get.

As far as muzzle brakes, I would recommend the Holland. All I own personally and only thing I fit on my Allen Magnum rifles. Accuracy is not effected any way and recoil would be dropped to that of a 308 Win chambered rifle.

The 338 is certainly a hammer at long range but as far as trajectory with a 300 gr bullet, they are not the flattest shooting rifle out there. A 300 RUM with a 200 gr accubond or 220 gr SMK would offer flatte trajectories but then again, bullet drop is easy to correct for, wind drift is the kicker so use this to determine which caliber family you want to go with.

TO be honest they are both great.

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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