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It's obvious that we know different "top" competitors.
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Just who are these competitors you seem to know so well? ANd more importantly, when were these guys top competitors? If they were using black powder and their grandkids have all taken dirt naps then that would make sense.
Those of us who are in the game today and don't play armchair theory from a retirement community couch actually do ask questions and converse with others in the game to find out what ultimately works the best. We also won't be fooled because we <font color="red"> have </font> done the homework my friend. So please, enough with the old school confusions!
HOw many gunsmiths and current competitors (from all disciplines) have to tell you what is going on before you believe it!
And furthermore, you are accusing us of being single minded and not being into more disciplines? Bart, I think the only thing you've ever talked about in your looooong few months here is highpower! Take a look around at the knowlededge and varied people here from all the areas of shooting. YOu are the one being narrow minded!
Frankly, if I'm not playing the game properly according to your fictitious "top competitors" I sure wouldn't be able to tell. I've been pretty darn successful doing things the way I do them and I dare say I've shot as good of groups if not better than most of those so-called "top competitors" of nowhereville USA and probably twice as far out as well. And that is just me. There are many others here in the same boat.
I think if you are going to post in the "basics, starting out" section, your posts should come with a disclaimer so as to let the new guys know there are NEW ways to do things!
I guess I'm just tired of you trying to convince us that you're so smart and the rest of us don't have any experience in these matters. Those of us who have put lots of hard hours into learning proper methods whether (they be old or new) know enough to know when the truth is being presented!
Ok, off the soap box and back to basics. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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The point of the pillars is to provide a consistant platform to apply a certain level of torque to the receiver screws which will not compress and will maintain this level of torque over a long period of time.
[/ QUOTE ]Kirby, you explaind that pretty good. A question, though.
Do you recommend using the same stock screw torque for both aluminum and steel pillars or does it matter? I ask 'cause I know some folks who insist that aluminum pillars shouldn't have stock screws too tight; they'll compress. Steel ones will probably take whatever the screws will.
Just went over to the long range target shooting forum for the top US Palma, Fclass and high power shooters and did a search on bedding. Between these shooters and BRest world, thinks that just about covers the US and world top shooters who actively practice putting bullets into little groups unless someone knows another group out there.
also looked at 6mmbr.com and guns of the week for the top shooters (both record holders and national champs etc).
There is an amazing coincidence that very few if any record holders are not top 10% shooters day in day out in their disicpline. Obviously this must be a recent phenomenon. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Looks like the general consensus is most do pillar, but not all by any means. Majority pillar, or bed with glass for sure, fewer use V-Blocks for some guns. Could not find one gun by Alex Sitman of Master class stocks that was not pillared, but I am sure they are out there, but all listed were pillared.
Guys like Ian Robertson of Robertson stocks beds his own in glass and does not pillar. However, he pillars almost all of his customers. Seems glass only has some durability issues long term if the person does not handle correctly or know what to watch for. Pillaring seems to be generally a little better in that area.
General consensus was clearly pillar was key for wood and McMillans in particular. Pillars could be done in steel, aluminum or glass equally well.
Here seemed to be a common thread also. Almost all who have their stocks bedded use pillaring. Almost all who do it at home use glass because they normally do not have the tools to pillar and several mentioned that as a factor.
Bottom line, both CAN be done equally well, however everyone pretty much seemed to agree that pillaring done correctly seems to be the way to go, but not only way to go.
Guess, if I wanted to play it safe, would pillar and not worry as there is definitely no provable accuracy difference with either method.
I know I'll put up my pillar bedded BR guns with any gun out there for as many shots as someone wants to put money on. Looking for early retirement funds anyway. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Aluminum pillars should be AT LEAST .500 in diameter and I prefer a 9/16" diameter pillar. Also they should be heat treated pillars not annealed aluminum.
With a properly heat treated pillar of this diameter, I recommend to torque the receiver screws to a range between 45 and 50 in/lbs of torque. Some recommend 65 in/lbs but I have not seen a difference in consistancy between 45 and 65 in a properly pillar bedded rifle.
I only use steel pillars for special occasions such as a very large rifle with alot of barrel weight when I need the retaining force of the mounting screws spread over a larger distance. For examply my 338 AM which has a 40" 1.750" straight cylinder barrel which is totally freefloated off the BAT 2"x10" receiver.
For an application such as this, I machine pillars with an OD of 1.000". The portion you see at the bottom of the stock is stepped down to around 0.750" for cosmetic reasons but the internal diameter is a full 1.000". There are also three of these pillars with the BAT receiver as opposed to two for most conventional receivers.
With set up like this I recommend 55 to 65 in/lbs of torque. Not because the pillars can handle more but because of the extreme increase in stress imposed to the receiver by the barrel.
So to answer your question, a properly sized and heat treated aluminum pillar will handle 65 in/lbs of torque but in a properly pillar bedded rifle this level is generally not needed.
I only recommend it in a case with an extremely heavy, long barrel.
Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.
Now, THIS is what I was hoping for!
Mr Allen, you have enlightened me, and for that I thank you sir.
I have a friend with a workshop at his home and he has offered to make up a set of pillars for me.He will go one step further and turn a coarse thread on the outside of the pillars to improve "grip" with the bedding material.I can get some Condev locally- would this suffice?
My friend said that he could make the pillars in either stainless steel or from "aircraft aluminium" - don't know if that is heat treated or not. Which would work better?
The reason for the new stock is that the current one is a Hogue overmoulded stock with pillar bedding, but the cheeckpiece is too low and I dont feel comfortable without a good repeatable head position on the cheekpiece.
You're NEVER too old to have a happy childhood!!