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New to long range! .308 winchester any good?

 
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  #15  
Old 09-28-2007, 05:22 PM
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Well!!

James Jones and Eaglet I know it can and will do 1000 with some degree of accuracy. I said my favorite load will go sub-sonic at 850 or so.

I've just recently been educated to the Berger VLD bullets and I do plan to experiment with them!

I've been shooting Sierra Game Kings 165 grains I got a great load that will shoot good and I tend to stick to it! I'm shoving them out the tube at 2600 FPS chronographed not guessing.

I bought a case of those 165 back when Midway had them on sale 7 or 8 years ago! Still got some left. All though I go through them quite often! Fired about 30 of them today! For my average deer hunting here in the East they work great.

I have to hunt for a place to shoot long range around here it's quite a bit different than out West.

Chuck
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  #16  
Old 09-29-2007, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaites View Post
Eaglet, punching paper is one thing...

The question was;

Is this caliber capeable of taking game out to (or close to) 1000 yards (834 meters), accurately and humanely?

The .308 has somewhere around 500 foot/pounds or less of energy left at 1000 yards, depending on which projectile you are using, which is just not enough energy to humanely do the job, at least in my book.

For targets, and for learning, it is superb, and with all the available data, perhaps THE best caliber for learning.

But for taking game at 1000 yards, I just don't feel it is enough tool.

Bill
bwaites,

James Jones already answered that! Here's the quote.

Quote:
IS the 308 the best choice for shooting deer at 1000yds , no but it will do it.
I come from a place where people would use a single shot 22 long range to kill deer at around 25, 30 yards to SURVIVE. Very rarely they would loose a dear, it was a survival thing and a single .22 cartridge was too expensive. Now, compare the energy of them old days ammo, maybe 80 ft-lb from a 0.224 Dia. to 500 ft-lb from a 0.308 Dia.... The least I could do was give James Jones the +1.

Respectfully, yes! 500 ft-lb is enough energy for a quick kill on anything that lives from deer to coyotes and from coyotes to varmints. Great for antelopes! Of course, the shooter has to do his job and do it well!
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  #17  
Old 09-29-2007, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaites View Post
Eaglet, punching paper is one thing...

The question was;

Is this caliber capeable of taking game out to (or close to) 1000 yards (834 meters), accurately and humanely?

The .308 has somewhere around 500 foot/pounds or less of energy left at 1000 yards, depending on which projectile you are using, which is just not enough energy to humanely do the job, at least in my book.

For targets, and for learning, it is superb, and with all the available data, perhaps THE best caliber for learning.

But for taking game at 1000 yards, I just don't feel it is enough tool.

Bill

Whilst I 100% agree with the sentiment (which I would express as: 308 on game animals at 1000yds? are you mad??! )

I feel the issue is not one of energy (appropriately placed; a firmly planted knitting needle has enough energy to kill a deer) but of accuracy.



Is the 308 suitable for hunting at 1000yds?

....well here's another way of looking at it:



If you are capable of making your wind call over the whole 1000yds to within 1mph; then yes.

If you are able to notice 1mph wind changes over the whole 1000yds ; then yes.

Otherwise; No.



Why?

(Taking Factory 175gr GMM as an example)

A 10mph wind will push the bullet 98.7 inches at 1000yds.

This means every 1mph change pushes the bullet 9.87inches at 1000yds (lets call it 10 inches for ease).

So

Even if you are capable of grouping with a 308 to 0.0001MOA at 1000 yds (and you won't be),

for every 1 mph you misjudge the wind, you will miss your POA by 10 inches.

Miss a 2mph wind change and your bullet goes 20inches wide of the aiming point.



...and that's forgetting the natural dispersion of your group compounding the error.

So, to answer the original question again :

If you're capable of consistently shooting your 308 within 0.5 MOA of your POA (ie shooting a sub 1 MOA group centred on your POA) at 1000yds and can make your wind calls and note changes over the whole 1000yds to within 1mph; then 'maybe', you'd be able to contemplate attempting a deer at that range, humanely, with a 308.

But it would be a poor and unforgiving choice (and the animals would the ones paying the price).

If you're not at that standard (and I'll wager there's not a man on this site that is); please forget using a 308 on game animals at 1000yds (which, by the way, is 914m, not 834 ! )

Find a genuine long range calibre.

Last edited by Brown Dog; 09-29-2007 at 01:59 PM.
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  #18  
Old 09-29-2007, 05:01 PM
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Thank you Brown Dog, for a much more effectively worded reply than I was able to come up with!!

Bill
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  #19  
Old 10-29-2007, 12:31 PM
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Consider these points

I would strongly suggest NO to the 308 as a 1000yd hunting rd because:

1) Impact velocity is very low - bullet will not expand much
2) Wind drift is enormous compared to just about any other cal
3) Just not delivering a very heavy hit - moderate slow moving bullets that don't expand.

All a receipe for disaster. If you shot that far with a 308 then compared with something like a 260R or 7-08, the wind drift difference is staggering.

Now add in the ballistic advantage of a fast 6.5 or 7mm, there is simply no comparison.

For me, my LR hunting rig for said purpose is a 7RM pushing 162gr Amax at 3100fps. Run those numbers through a ballistics program and compare to the 308 with ANY load it can muster.

Not in the same ballpark.

If you want a rifle to practise and think the 308 has the sort of ballistics you like, go with a fast twist 223 and 75/80gr Amax. Ballistic twins with 1/2 the cost and 1/3 the recoil.

If you want a LR hunting rifle where you might take a killing shot at game that far out, more horsepower, better ballistics, more reliable expansion come to mind.

Jerry
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  #20  
Old 10-29-2007, 10:59 PM
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I believe the .308 is an effective killer of deer sized critters out to 650 yards, delivering shock and lots of penetration. Out to 700-750 it will still kill but I have seen more deer walk around or dash until their lungs fill with blood. I have never shot a deer past 750 with a .308 but one of my friends did a one-shot kill on a mule doe last year at 830, she was on three legs and needed to be put down. One 168 AMAX did her in nicely, this was after a couple of sighters on a rock that she happened to walked to.

A wise gunsmith friend of mine has a very astute opinion regarding the .308. He says:

"Friends don't let friends shoot .308's at one thousand yards..."

He means there are such superior cartridges available, why shoot the .308? I particularly agree when you are talking about shooting critters at 1000 yards, the impact energy is not going to overwhelm the critter unless you take out the nervous system. I believe that would be a fluke-shot with any hunting weight .308 rifle on the planet.

While I enjoy my .308's a lot, they do have limitations. I would say the next logical progression is one of the .300 mags, then a .338 Lapua, then one of Kirby's boomers, then a .416 Barrett or .408 cheytac, then a .50, then... I have experienced the .300 mags and the .416 Barrett on game, need to fill in the gaps with the Lapua and the other big players tho.

Brown dog, sure enjoyed and share your outlook on this topic and Jerry T's.
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  #21  
Old 10-31-2007, 11:01 AM
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The Army says 800meters, the Marines 1000yards(915meters) and over 1000 for our crew served weapons. The thing is we don't care about a quick humane kill (bad as that sounds). You are trying to take the guy out of the fight, unless he is a priority target and that is a different matter. A hit will more then likely take him out and a couple of his buddies to aid him. I wouldn't personally shoot big game at 1000 yards. The ballistics just aren't there. External or terminal. Now, varmints or terrorists I have no problems with.
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