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Looking for advice, Fluted/ non-fluted

 
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  #8  
Old 08-06-2010, 11:56 PM
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Re: Looking for advice, Fluted/ non-fluted

Just a question, say a guy is trying to build a rifle only weight of 10lbs, wouldn't you get a stiffer barrel if you used a larger diameter barrel and flute it? For example if I was to put on a fluted number 8 which weighed the same as a non fluted 7. Bench rest shooters, don't have to worry about weight as much as every one else, so yeah, a non fluted barrel is the way to go, but if weight is an issue, fluting has some advantages. I have shot both fluted and non fluted barrels and the fluted have been the most accurate. Now was that because they were fluted or just because they were heavier to start with? Again this is one of those things where what works for one guy has no place for another. Personally I don't think fluting has much play on accuracy or not. You get what you pay for. Who wants to trade me a Shilen number 5 straight across for a fluted number 8 take off barrel? Or who wants to trade me a Shilen 8 fluted straight across for a number 5 take off barrel?
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  #9  
Old 08-07-2010, 08:33 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,437
Re: Looking for advice, Fluted/ non-fluted

Quote:
Originally Posted by straightshooter View Post
Just a question, say a guy is trying to build a rifle only weight of 10lbs, wouldn't you get a stiffer barrel if you used a larger diameter barrel and flute it? For example if I was to put on a fluted number 8 which weighed the same as a non fluted 7. Bench rest shooters, don't have to worry about weight as much as every one else, so yeah, a non fluted barrel is the way to go, but if weight is an issue, fluting has some advantages. I have shot both fluted and non fluted barrels and the fluted have been the most accurate. Now was that because they were fluted or just because they were heavier to start with? Again this is one of those things where what works for one guy has no place for another. Personally I don't think fluting has much play on accuracy or not. You get what you pay for. Who wants to trade me a Shilen number 5 straight across for a fluted number 8 take off barrel? Or who wants to trade me a Shilen 8 fluted straight across for a number 5 take off barrel?
The best thing I can tell you is to log on the Lilja site and under FAQs Dan has a very good
explanation and comparison between fluted and non fluted Barrels.

So don't take my word for it ,Because I'm am not a barrel maker, go strait to the barrel maker
and get your answer.

I had some bad experiences with fluted barrels and for a long time I would not build a tomato
stake with flutes much less a rifle. After talking to Lilja and having him explain the reasons that
I had had bad experiences with fluted barrels (Not his) It was just bad fluting and he
guaranteed me that if it were done right that they had little or no effect on accuracy and since
I tried one of his fluted barrels My mind has been changed.

I have quite a few fluted barrels now and I am very happy with them. strangely enough though
the very best(Most accurate) rifles/pistols I have are all non fluted. (Coincident?) maybe , but
when rifles shoot 1/10 of an inch groups I consider that good enough.

I have lots of fluted rifles that shoot 1/4 MOA so the difference is not much if any.

To build a rifle of a certain weight it is best to put the right components together not just the
barrel . Example: There are scopes that weigh less that 2 pounds and there are other ones
that weigh over 4 pounds.

So if you build a rifle that weighs 5.1/2 pounds and then hang a 4 pound scope on it you end
up with a heavy rifle.

Fluting is not the answer to weight because a fluted barrel will only reduce the weight by less
than 1/2 a pound and a fluted # 7 weighs as much as a plain #6 and is no stronger.

So look for a lighter scope, rings,bases,stocks if weight is a problem.

Just my opinion for what it's worth.

J E CUSTOM
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Last edited by J E Custom; 08-07-2010 at 04:59 PM.
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  #10  
Old 08-07-2010, 09:47 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dillon MT
Posts: 188
Re: Looking for advice, Fluted/ non-fluted

Quote:
Originally Posted by J E Custom View Post
Not to start an argument but when you say it does help accuracy then why doesn't the
bench rest guys use them.

If they were better they would all have fluted barrels.

I am a metallurgist and speed of stress relieving temperatures is fixed and the hold time is what gives it it's desired
effect so speed is not an option for a proper stress relief.

Also a #5+ (Lilja barrel is .700 at the muzzle) is able to handel fluting well. I think Lilja will flute down to a #4 . Some other barrel makers use a different number system for there barrels and
there #5 may be to small.

I like the Lilja size system because it relates to factory barrels all the way down to the ultra
light barrels of mountain rifles and some of the Weatherby buggy whips (They are a # 2
Contour).

So I will stay with my original statement that for the long range Shooter they are not any
better They just look better to some people.

J E CUSTOM
I didnt say it helped accuracy. I stated that the harmonics were different on a fluted barrel and that its measurable on the machine i have.

Not sure what you mean by speed but what we do works and works very well to take out stress/stabilize barrel harmonics. Which ever it is it works and i can prove it.

When fluting a barrel we like to leave at least a .15" wall over the bore size on each size for safety reasons. You might be able to push that close to .1 but its not something we will do.

Dont worry about starting a argument I dont mind being told that im wrong or why. I just ask that there is good evidence and proof or just a very logical agument.

There is a ton of different factors that go into account of why a gun may or may not be amazingly accurate. Thats why people will tell you do whatever is making it work. There is to many factors that can change how well it performs. But what im trying to do is get rid of as many as possible to make things alot more simply for everyone.

For the statement that Benchresters dont use fluted barrel that is true but i have put together more then a few 11 pound guns for the hunter class that can rival what even the heavy guns do on a fairly consistent basis. Yes there is a draw back having to get them that light you do tend to heat the barrel up enough that its tough to get 10 shot groups but it seems like we are doing pretty good. BR guys will stick to what they believe in not exactly what works. Yes there is usually some good grounds for what they do i just dont believe they are the say all for what is right or wrong.

bobby
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  #11  
Old 08-13-2010, 09:48 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 75
Re: Looking for advice, Fluted/ non-fluted

I went back and forth with this same debate on a build I am doing now. After some research, the only thing that I could conclude that I would get with fluting the barrel was a barrel with flutes. I never was convinced it was going to help anything, so I decided not to flute the barrel.
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  #12  
Old 08-15-2010, 11:41 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 35
Re: Looking for advice, Fluted/ non-fluted

i am having a barrel made and did not have it fluted. I had talked to my wife and was calling in the morning to get the sprial flutes but now i will keep the money. Well not keep it it will find a place with the gun build
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  #13  
Old 08-17-2010, 08:10 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 198
Re: Looking for advice, Fluted/ non-fluted

First: A good discussion on barrels and such here: Link

Second: I think there is no magic pixie dust to make a rifle shoot more accurately... It is the combination of the training and practice of the shooter and the quality and attention to detail that the parts are chosen, assembled and fitted.

That said, half a pound to me is significant. If I can take a heavier contoured barrel at the weight of a lessor contoured barrel that is a win in my book.

I'm going for a practical rifle competition rifle for my current build. I wanted something that I can also take hog hunting so weight is a consideration in both scenarios but not as important as if I were hunting Dall Sheep in Alaska then weight would be extremely important. Durability and repeatability from multi shot strings is more important since I will not be lugging it around for a week in hopes of just squeezing off one shot.

To pass off fluting with one broad stoke of a brush is somewhat reckless.

Do flutes make any sense to a bench rest competitor? Probably not since weight is their friend. That could be why you do not see flutes in mass on bench rest rifles (plus the extra mass will minimize whip, vibration, and take longer for heat to build up due to the extra mass).

I started reading this thread (as I do many of the threads here) with the expectation of learning something new. Unfortunately it turned into a narrow focused, opinion based rant against flutes...
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  #14  
Old 08-17-2010, 10:24 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: middle tn
Posts: 72
Re: Looking for advice, Fluted/ non-fluted

No evidence to support my thought about why a fluted barrel might have some advantage. I think it cools faster, my thoughts are to shoot it at a rate that keeps a barrel at a constant temperature. Ive noticed shooting a non fluted barrel that it gets a feel of being heavy and the temperatures seem to trend to hotter than I like. I'd like to rig some kind of temperature measuring device and see what the difference is over 10 and 20 round groups.

Does a barrel have a temperature sweet spot? After I've shot 10 rounds and the then hold the barrel a fluted barrel doesnt feel as hot as a non fluted barel. May be my imagination.

I think with an event like High Power 600 yd Midrange shooting a fluted barrel would have an advantage using a bolt rifle though most matches are typically shot with ar's or F-Class using a bolt gun.

I think a hunting rifle when 1 or 2 shots are made temperature is a non issue and a lighter gun is nice to carry a long ways (even if only in your mind).

I think fluted barrels have their place but I don't think I'll ever see a H&H .600 something with flutes.
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