Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Hunting > The Basics, Starting Out


Reply

Hey experts, Can we have a lesson on wind doping?

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #15  
Old 08-09-2005, 11:38 AM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: centre,alabama
Posts: 948
Re: Hey experts, Can we have a lesson on wind doping?

Good advice..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-09-2005, 12:25 PM
Writers Guild
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,459
Re: Hey experts, Can we have a lesson on wind doping?

A couple of things I can add. First, make sure you have a consistent rifle. Doesn't need to be a super BR rig but you must have the confidence that in ideal location, you would know where the bullet will arrive. I feel 1/2MOA is a good min. for a shooter at LR, MOA is max.

Test at different ranges to ensure that the load continues to do what you predict. No use trying to compensate a few inches with a load/rifle that can't hold 1 ft at that distance. Watch changes to your load caused by temp.

Then there is the optics. Some scopes just let you see mirage better then others. I have a Pentax Lightseeker 30. Certainly not the best optics in the world but man can you see mirage. Target image is still very clear. Really helps with doping.

Conversely, my Elite 4200 scopes are crystal clear with better resolution. Mirage does not show up as well even with AO is off focus.

Don't know if this is a coating issue or whatever but the Pentax will be on my LR target /hunting rifles when possible.

Test the consistency of your equipment - critical to your success. At 400 to 500yds, set up a target like a clay pigeon. Watch the conditions take a shot. Odds are there is a miss. Spot the impact and shoot again without moving the sights. Does it hit in the same spot? Repeat until you are confident that the bullets are landing in the same spot. Then adjust and see what happens.

If the POI covers a large area (many times larger then the intended target, hits all over the place), then you know that the rifle/load/shooter is not suitable for that distance/target. Be honest with yourself and change what needs to be to get you shooting consistently/accurately.

I imagine a disc the group size of my rifle when compensating for wind/conditions. I want the highest probability that a bullet falling into this area will engage the target. With small targets, the area of fire will be bigger then the target so there will always be a chance of missing no matter how well I dope.

If I expect the bullet to land on top of each other, I would get quickly demoralized because you just can't dope precise enough. The rifle will not let you. Understand the limits of your equipment AND the task you are presenting yourself.

To simplify, let's say your consistent group size at some long distance is 8 inches for 5 rds under ideal conditions. You are trying to hit a PD which offers you a 3"X8" target. Right away, I know that perfect shooting will only give a hit 50% of the time, maybe a bit less depending on how you do your math. That doesn't mean you accept missing 50% of the time but if your bullet lands within a few inches of the PD (within that 8" circle), you know that you have a 'hit'.

You just have to direct that area of fire over your target so that you increase the probability of a hit. With a bit of luck, you connect.

Why I laugh about PD shooting at extreme distances. It is a lot of fun, yes but call it intended shooting, no. When the target is less then 5% of the group size of a rifle, this falls into spray and pray. With enough bullets, anyone can hit anything at any range. That's not what LR hunting is about.

The target area and the accuracy of the rifle/shooter under the conditions presented must be such that a probability of a hit exceeds 95%. Otherwise, get closer, don't shoot.

So that 8" area of fire on a deer giving a kill zone 12X12 leads to a 100% probability of a hit. Now your skill to compensate for wind matters because you know the bullet will fall within an area suitable to take out the target if you can dope appropriately.

Get out there and burn lots of powder. Be very systematic and watch your variables. Don't get that barrel hot as this really throws a wrench in the works. Consistency and repeatability is what leads to accuracy.

When you know that, you are well on your way to being a great shot.

Jerry

PS Alot of LR hunters will use the spotting shot before engaging the game. Just gets rid of all those variables at LR.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-09-2005, 01:24 PM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,930
Re: Hey experts, Can we have a lesson on wind doping?

[ QUOTE ]
Why I laugh about PD shooting at extreme distances. It is a lot of fun, yes but call it intended shooting, no. When the target is less then 5% of the group size of a rifle, this falls into spray and pray. With enough bullets, anyone can hit anything at any range. That's not what LR hunting is about.


[/ QUOTE ]

Part of LRH is practice, and that is what shooting PDs @ extreme range is about. If your shooting @ such a small target @ extreme ranges it sure does make it easier to hit a target 5 times as big.

When shooting PDs @ exteme ranges, just b/c the PD runs in the hole, doesn't mean you missed. You have do your part everytime you lob a bullet out there to even have a chance of kill.

How many PDs have you killed past 700 yds?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-09-2005, 01:32 PM
SPONSOR
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,503
Re: Hey experts, Can we have a lesson on wind doping?

Now I am not trying to hijack this post, I have found it very informative. I am a little taken back my Jerry's "laughing" at long range pdog shooting.

Now obviously high percentage hitting of pdogs at distances past 1000yds is not as common as with some other animals, but it is still very admirable.

I think long range dogging is great practice for people trying to hone their ability. The animal is very small but will set still, they tend to be dumb and stick around after a miss, and most people do not like them anyway.

When me and Bill Bailey shoot our pdogs past 1k I would definantly not call it spray and pray. We did not have real high hit percentage but it was the first 2 times we had ever tried it before and we were also shooting a completely factory rifle. We consistantly hit with a few inches of every dog and as a good man once told me you can learn as much from a close miss as you can from a hit.

I am not trying to jump you but I do take pride in some of the good shots I have made and I just wanted to defend them.

Here in a few weeks when I get my 270 Allen Mag rolling maybe I can improve on you 50% hit theory

Steve
__________________
Steve Elmenhorst
Third Generation Shooting Supply
www.3rdgss.com
"Products for shooters, by shooters"
1-800-522-3314
monday-friday 8:30-5:30 CST
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-09-2005, 02:05 PM
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pueblo, CO
Posts: 1,173
Re: Hey experts, Can we have a lesson on wind doping?

Are u running clicks for wind or are u referencing wind with the reticle-- ballistic or ranging? Although i still shoot pr. dogs some i never run clicks anymore for windage. The reason i do this is because i use pr. dog shooting for practice for hunting under field conditions, and i want a quick accurate reference for my wind call. I always pick my reticles such that i have a decent windage reference in them, i.e. i like to have a reticle with windage stadia that gives my 4-6 MOA (for hunting to 6-800 yds.) reference. Once i know the stadia subtensions, i simply divide the ballistic program windage calcs in MOA by each stadia's MOA value to reference windage in tenths of a "stadia unit". Then this info goes on my range sticker on my scope, so i can get a reasonable windage reference quickly in the field. I certainly don't have the experience many do on this forum, but this system has proven itself surprisingly very effective for me, and i am still quite taken aback when i make a 1st shot connection on a pr. dog in a 5-15 mph x-wind with my AR-15/Ballistic Plex reticle, and some of my single-shot handguns on coyotes at long-range.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-09-2005, 05:06 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 460
Re: Hey experts, Can we have a lesson on wind doping?

Thanks guys, my rifle has the capability but I do not have the skill. It will group around two inches at 500 yards. Jerry I understand what you mean about understanding your rifles capabilities. For instance my rifle will shoot under a minute of angle at 1000(proven early in the mornings of a shoot), so when I miss a call I take that 8 or 9 inches into consideration. Not taking that into consideration was a mistake I used to make often when making corrections. I usually get an estimate on the wind, say its a varying 5 moa-7moa wind, then I will usually give it 4-5 moa and hold over for the rest. I've got a few books on the way now so I'll have some reading.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-09-2005, 09:03 PM
Writers Guild
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,459
Re: Hey experts, Can we have a lesson on wind doping?

Bill, where I live PD are protected if you can believe that so I have "never" shot at them. I have shot my share of clay pigeons at further ranges though. That's pretty close in size.

No, I don't think 700yds is LR either. In fact, with the rigs many of us shoot, 1000m is quite doable. I am talking 2000m and beyond.

At those ranges, groups are in the 2 to 3 ft variety in dead calm. Add some wind and you are looking at a 6 to 10ft circle. of course we can hit a pop can size target, but the mechanical ability limits us somewhat.

Was not meant to be a critism. I do alot of LR shooting and pushing the limits is what I enjoy. However, at some point, you got to just call it for what it is.

And dusting a PD at LR is a lot of fun, but it most certainly is still a miss.

arthurj, at LR, if you need to hold off that much for wind, my suggestion is don't shoot. At 700yds, a wind needing 5 min of adjustment means that you are compensating for about 3ft of drift. That is the length of the average deer behind the shoulder to the rump.

If you misjudge by a bit, you are way off your mark. In that kind of wind, I would get closer or at the very least use a spotter shot or two or ten.

Maybe more conservative then most but if the wind requires more then one mil dot of windage as I see it in my scope, I wait for another day. As I said earlier, I believe that the max range I will pull the trigger is under conditions and distance where I have a better then 95% chance of a direct hit.

Only your skill and ethics will determine your limits.

Jerry
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads for: Hey experts, Can we have a lesson on wind doping?
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Doping the Wind Broken Brow Turkey Hunting 0 05-30-2011 12:19 PM
another wind doping question dbleyepatches Long Range Hunting & Shooting 8 02-03-2010 07:50 PM
How the heck do you experts read the wind? britz The Basics, Starting Out 5 10-12-2008 05:09 PM
Angle Doping??? IChaseCoues The Basics, Starting Out 30 12-03-2006 06:38 PM

Current Poll
Do You Shoot Rifle Competition?
YES - 33.66%
764 Votes
NO - 66.34%
1,506 Vote
Total Votes: 2,270
You may not vote on this poll.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC