Could you explain this a little differently for the thick headed (me), I think you are saying the CR10 didn't work quite as well as the others, and that's my experience too.
The only one to not have copper removed with the Ammonia solution was Barnes CR10.
All of the others still got blue patches.
You went on here to say Butch's and Hoppe's were the worst though...
The worse one was Butch's bore shine and hoppes copper remover. Pretty much didn't take any copper out.
This here would make sense if you found that they were the least effective copper removers...
Might work well in BR type barrels but not in production barrels.
I think JB works better than them all though. Haven't used the High strength ammonia though, Sweets is about the best and highest strength stuff I've used. It's just a tad slower than JB in my experience.
One thing I'm convinced of is that Ammonia doesn't hurt your barrel no matter how long you leave it in the bore... I've heard of too many tests where absolutely no affect had taken place, and that was even using the pure stuff in one of them too. To each his own though. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
I rate the copper removers like this, top to bottom, best to worst;
S1, Being a lifetime AMSOIL dealer, I've found a few things they make that work fine for my rifles, I use their synthetic grease and Metal Protector, and they make an engine cleaner called 'Power Foam' that I bet would make an excellent bore cleaner for powder fouling, my cost is $3.25, for 18oz. can. And they're 5w-30w is fluid down to -60F. Although, I've been using Kroil after my cleaning regemine, always wiping with two clean patches before shooting, whats your feeling on Kroil as far as a lubricant/cleaner? Jay
To clarify for winmagman and brent, the CR10 is the best commerical copper solvent I have used. It was the only one that cleaned as thoroughly as the industrial strength ammonia.
The worse cleaners were the BBS and Hoppes copper solvent. These barely touched the copper in the bore. Low ammonia contents or no ammonia at all.
BR barrels are very smooth compared to production barrels. They foul a lot less so need less agressive cleaners. BBS and others like it work well in this environment.
Brent, ammonia from commercial solvents may not affect barrel steel because their concentrations are so low. CR10 will cause light surface "rust". The industrial ammonia will cause "rust" if left on. Just swab it through then wipe it out with dry patches - no problem. This stuff is as strong as you can buy without a lab coat and permits.
JB is a mechanical cleaner and works very well. I have used it for years as a lapping compound and to remove heavy fouling. Problem is that with JB, you will go back to bare metal and the moly layer will have to be rebuilt. Since I shoot moly, I want to avoid this.
I find the combo of GM engine cleaner/any powder solvent and the ammonia to accomplish the same thing and is less messy. I can stop cleaning at the moly layer.
Either way works. One is mechanical, the other is chemical. Take your pick.
I wish I had the links to the threads over at benchrest.com that were discusing ammonia and it's "don't leave in the bore too long", some real interesting facts about ammonia and barrel steel interaction was layed out, not to mention the various tests by different guys that were performed... I wish my memory was better and I could tell you all about it, but it ain't. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Might find it with a search over there though...
Jerry, how do you moly coat your bullets/bore and what are the advantages/disadvantages you've noticed doing it?