Long Range Hunting Online Magazine


Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Hunting > The Basics, Starting Out


Reply

Cheap Long range Rig

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #15  
Old 02-07-2013, 02:20 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Franz Josef Glacier, New Zealand
Posts: 151
Re: Cheap Long range Rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullet bumper View Post
I only paid $50 per thousand for those short 6.5 mm jackets so add in lead and lubricant and wear and tear and $80 per thousand is about right.
However it was a lot of work to draw down the jackets to .240 and a big risk that they may not shoot very well but luckily they shoot quite ok so far .
Jacket thickness concentricity ( thickness runout) is a big issue for accuracy and you need to keep them as concentric as possible. Less than .0003 variation is good . This is what bullet makers never tell you. If the jackets are bad the bullets don't shoot as well as they should no matter how well you make them .
However perfect jackets can be screwed up by poorly made bullets.
most of the time new J4 jackets are about an average of 220 a thousand to land in Aust add to that lead cores and lubricant , cleaning and washing agents ,
electricity etc and you can make a thousand flat bases for about $250
It is a lot of work to save about $100 to $150 but the end product is very consistant and once you have the gear you can also make core bonded game bullets for little extra cost . The big savings are in finding cheap surplus jackets .
This is my gun I built with the temporary day scope on a ARMS QD 20 MOA mount . It is a multi platform stock and can shoot from a combination of support systems. Bi-pod and rear canterlever Monopod . Bi-pod and Bald Eagle rear rest . Front BR rest and rear monopod. Front BR rest and bald eagle rear rest , Front sand bag and any of the rear rests mentioned or straight on the shoulder . This all achieved by adding and subtracting parts of the stock . Bi-pod is quick detachable and rear monopod is elevation adjustable .
Sounds like its worth it the long run.
Is it hard to make core bonded projectiles that are good???
Man everyones guns on here make mine look like it was from the ark haha.
That is a awesome set up. How could ya miss??haha
All I have is a harris bipod/rolled up jersy for my front"mount" and a beanie for my rear "mono pod" haha.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-07-2013, 05:02 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 711
Re: Cheap Long range Rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP100 View Post
Sounds like its worth it the long run.
Is it hard to make core bonded projectiles that are good???
Man everyones guns on here make mine look like it was from the ark haha.
That is a awesome set up. How could ya miss??haha
All I have is a harris bipod/rolled up jersy for my front"mount" and a beanie for my rear "mono pod" haha.
There is nothing wrong with an Omark 44 . Mine would be an Omark 44 if the action had a screw in barrel . The Omark is more accurately made than most war surplus Mauser 98's are .
Most of the crap I have for this gun would never go into the field . Having multiple platforms just comes in handy at different places like the range . In the field I would just use the bi-pod and the rear mono-pod mainly .
However if I was walking about a lot I would carry a different gun as this sucker is way too heavy.
You have a big advantage over most you live in a place that is near game . Although I would have to look up where Ward is as I must confess I have not heard of it and I thought I new NZ fairly well .
From memory ( and I have a very good memory for maps ) the main goat ranges were North Island , East of Whanganui NP area , Upper hut area . South island , Glenorchy area , Nelson area . and quite a few smaller locations .
Without cheating and looking up google I would say you have to live near one of those four main goat areas. I could look back at your photos and from the topography narrow it down a bit more but then you would think I cheated for sure .
It is harder to make an accurate core bonded bullet than a standard core bullet.
However the way I do it is less problematic than some of the other processes .
The secret is thorough cleaning of the inside of the jacket , thorough application of flux but without leaving a pool in the bottom of the jacket , thorough heating and melting of the core material to exclude all air and flux gas bubbles .
Holding of the jacket very vertical while it is heated and cooling .
Then when cool , thorough removal of flux residue ( most difficult part ) .
Then the real secret is seat the core as normal with a punch that has a small conical raised centre . The reason I do this is when the lead alloy cools in a bonded jacket it leaves a depression or small hole in the centre of the core surface . This is out of balance with the centre axis of the bullet .
The raised centre punch removes the out off balance structure by pressing in a concentric structure as the jacket is core seated and expanded up to the die diameter. Point forming operation is as normal.
However no matter how well you core bond a bullet some accuracy is lost but it can be minimised to a point that when taking into consideration that a core bonded bullet is going to be used on a larger game animal at shorter ranges not a small varmint . The main problem is small areas that may contain trapped flux and when the bullet is point formed the core material that flows forward to form the Ogive is not bonded anymore , it is kind of a balloon of lead alloy being extruded forward to fill the ogive . So it is possible it can extrude forward in a non concentric manner to fill the Ogive and result in a core surface that is not square across the axis of the bullet . I have found that it is better to try and fill the Ogive as much as possible rather than leave a core low in the bullet . The smaller the diameter of the finish of the core the less it can be out of balance. Providing the Ogive has filled properly . The loss is not that important over shorter ranges on big game . Hunting at long range generally requires a different class of high BC bullet anyway .
I generally don't miss game because I tend to only take shots that I know I can make within my range capabilities , however I do have off days when the gun will not shoot, ha ha. However with this gun I am expecting to extend my range capabilities a bit more from a more static firing position . A new more powerful scope is going to help a lot eventually .
This is the 30 cal bullets I make at the moment. You can't see the end of the core in the 180 grain bullet because it has a small amount of nail polish on the end of the core to identify a core bonded from a non bonded . NO I don't paint my nails .
The Meplats look larger than they actually are due to being close to the camera .
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Bullet bumper; 02-07-2013 at 05:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-07-2013, 11:02 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Franz Josef Glacier, New Zealand
Posts: 151
Re: Cheap Long range Rig

[QUOTE=
Most of the crap I have for this gun would never go into the field . Having multiple platforms just comes in handy at different places like the range . In the field I would just use the bi-pod and the rear mono-pod mainly .
However if I was walking about a lot I would carry a different gun as this sucker is way too heavy.
You have a big advantage over most you live in a place that is near game . Although I would have to look up where Ward is as I must confess I have not heard of it and I thought I new NZ fairly well .
From memory ( and I have a very good memory for maps ) the main goat ranges were North Island , East of Whanganui NP area , Upper hut area . South island , Glenorchy area , Nelson area . and quite a few smaller locations .
Without cheating and looking up google I would say you have to live near one of those four main goat areas. I could look back at your photos and from the topography narrow it down a bit more but then you would think I cheated for sure .
It is harder to make an accurate core bonded bullet than a standard core bullet.
However the way I do it is less problematic than some of the other processes .
The secret is thorough cleaning of the inside of the jacket , thorough application of flux but without leaving a pool in the bottom of the jacket , thorough heating and melting of the core material to exclude all air and flux gas bubbles .
Holding of the jacket very vertical while it is heated and cooling .
Then when cool , thorough removal of flux residue ( most difficult part ) .
Then the real secret is seat the core as normal with a punch that has a small conical raised centre . The reason I do this is when the lead alloy cools in a bonded jacket it leaves a depression or small hole in the centre of the core surface . This is out of balance with the centre axis of the bullet .
The raised centre punch removes the out off balance structure by pressing in a concentric structure as the jacket is core seated and expanded up to the die diameter. Point forming operation is as normal.
However no matter how well you core bond a bullet some accuracy is lost but it can be minimised to a point that when taking into consideration that a core bonded bullet is going to be used on a larger game animal at shorter ranges not a small varmint . The main problem is small areas that may contain trapped flux and when the bullet is point formed the core material that flows forward to form the Ogive is not bonded anymore , it is kind of a balloon of lead alloy being extruded forward to fill the ogive . So it is possible it can extrude forward in a non concentric manner to fill the Ogive and result in a core surface that is not square across the axis of the bullet . I have found that it is better to try and fill the Ogive as much as possible rather than leave a core low in the bullet . The smaller the diameter of the finish of the core the less it can be out of balance. Providing the Ogive has filled properly . The loss is not that important over shorter ranges on big game . Hunting at long range generally requires a different class of high BC bullet anyway .
I generally don't miss game because I tend to only take shots that I know I can make within my range capabilities , however I do have off days when the gun will not shoot, ha ha. However with this gun I am expecting to extend my range capabilities a bit more from a more static firing position . A new more powerful scope is going to help a lot eventually .
This is the 30 cal bullets I make at the moment. You can't see the end of the core in the 180 grain bullet because it has a small amount of nail polish on the end of the core to identify a core bonded from a non bonded . NO I don't paint my nails .
The Meplats look larger than they actually are due to being close to the camera .[/QUOTE]

Did you make your stock/monopod your self? all I would want to add to my setup is a monopod and a better scope then Id have no complaints.
Ward is in South Marlborough. Not many NZers know where it is haha. We have pretty big goat numbers but there are defintly places that have alot more. Especially in the North Island around Gisbourne, its pretty bad up there for goats.
I love the NZ hunting oppertunities its great. My parents own a farm(no goats left on our place haha) so we know alot of landowners and hunting access is pretty easy for us. Id find it so hard being in a place like the USA where there are seasons and bag limits but they need to be in place to protect native species.
Projectile making seems pretty complex but so did reloading when I knew nothing about it. sounds like it would add a whole new level to the "roll your own" approach.
I try not to take shots I cant make either. I rekon it messes up your confidence alot and you start doubting and questioning the gun,ammo,scope ect...
Do you make your bullets to sell? or just for your self?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-07-2013, 11:58 PM
Gold Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 711
Re: Cheap Long range Rig

I made the whole stock , the Picatinny scope rail and threaded and chambered the barrel also . It's all registered and legal .
Bullet making is a bit difficult to start but after a few years it is no big deal . The big hassle is getting the jackets and finding fairly soft lead alloys .
I had to teach myself from square one but if you have a teacher then it is much quicker to get proficient and start making good bullets . Nothing worse than doubting your gear it will ruin your concentration and form.
I agree that going after shots on game you know you just can't make is a bad idea . Better to practise on paper and get your eye in first.
I have sold a few packs of bullets to people at my range but they tell other people and then you have people hassling you all the time at the range. Supplies of jackets are to hard to replace now so I just make them for myself now . Doing it for profit would take the pleasure out of it .
Goat shooting in OZ is a bit of a pain now as most of the farmers round them up and sell them for more money than a sheep ! So out on the flatter plains country it is very hard to find a place that allows you to shoot goats . Maybe they let you shoot a few and then you have to go after pigs , foxes etc for the remainder of your time which is ok if they are there .
To get a place with permission to shoot as many as you want you have to find a place that is very rugged country that they don't round them up much.
There are exceptions but they are hard to find. I am too old for mountain climbing . This is my best goat head taken back in 1987 I think but this photo is taken more recently. I had a bigger one but my pig dogs pulled it down and wrecked it . Last picture is how my stock looked when I started .
Attached Thumbnails - Click to View Larger
Cheap Long range Rig-36.5-inch-head-taken-coolabah-1987.jpg  

Cheap Long range Rig-sdc11930.jpg  

Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-08-2013, 09:19 PM
Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: SD
Posts: 87
Re: Cheap Long range Rig

JP100,

Earlier you said you were having problems with the nikko-stirling. What were your biggest concerns?

Thanks a lot.

Last edited by AH3682; 02-08-2013 at 09:20 PM. Reason: I forgot my manners
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-09-2013, 02:57 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Franz Josef Glacier, New Zealand
Posts: 151
Re: Cheap Long range Rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by AH3682 View Post
JP100,

Earlier you said you were having problems with the nikko-stirling. What were your biggest concerns?

Thanks a lot.
Hi there
I havnt had any problems with the scope I am just not at that confident with it. I havnt dialed up elevation at all as im not sure it will be repeatable/reliable I just hold over. The clariety isnt great on the higher magnifications(I just use 16X)
Thats my main concern is just the repeatablity of it. I know I should test it and play around abit but Im getting on pretty well with the MilDot.
Have you used one before?? Any info on them would be good as all Ive heard is negative stuff.
Cheers
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-09-2013, 03:01 AM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Franz Josef Glacier, New Zealand
Posts: 151
Re: Cheap Long range Rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullet bumper View Post
I made the whole stock , the Picatinny scope rail and threaded and chambered the barrel also . It's all registered and legal .
Bullet making is a bit difficult to start but after a few years it is no big deal . The big hassle is getting the jackets and finding fairly soft lead alloys .
I had to teach myself from square one but if you have a teacher then it is much quicker to get proficient and start making good bullets . Nothing worse than doubting your gear it will ruin your concentration and form.
I agree that going after shots on game you know you just can't make is a bad idea . Better to practise on paper and get your eye in first.
I have sold a few packs of bullets to people at my range but they tell other people and then you have people hassling you all the time at the range. Supplies of jackets are to hard to replace now so I just make them for myself now . Doing it for profit would take the pleasure out of it .
Goat shooting in OZ is a bit of a pain now as most of the farmers round them up and sell them for more money than a sheep ! So out on the flatter plains country it is very hard to find a place that allows you to shoot goats . Maybe they let you shoot a few and then you have to go after pigs , foxes etc for the remainder of your time which is ok if they are there .
To get a place with permission to shoot as many as you want you have to find a place that is very rugged country that they don't round them up much.
There are exceptions but they are hard to find. I am too old for mountain climbing . This is my best goat head taken back in 1987 I think but this photo is taken more recently. I had a bigger one but my pig dogs pulled it down and wrecked it . Last picture is how my stock looked when I started .
Thats wikid that you made most of it yourself. Good work looks great.
Goat shooting in the North island is like that aswell with freezing works offering good money for them. But in the south Island ther isnt as many freezing works that take them(if any????) so most are free game and most landowners want rid of them.
That is a HUGE goat!! None like that where I live haha.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Current Poll
Spot & Stalk or Ambush For Western Deer?
MOSTLY - Spot & Stalk - 74.14%
926 Votes
MOSTLY - Ambush - 25.86%
323 Votes
Total Votes: 1,249
You may not vote on this poll.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2014 Long Range Hunting, LLC