Baldeagle, I spoke to the guys at Krieger and they told me that they felt that break in was unneccessary and the barrell will eventually break itself in. This is VERY contradictory from the info on their web site.
I'm not saying this to agree or disagree just to point out that their words and web sight do not agree!
I personally don't believe that 5 shots before cleaning will leave permanent residue in the barrel.
INteresting, Very Interesting.
I guess to each his own then. I how ever I Like cleaning a new barrel before and after I put the first round down the tube. Be sides brakin in a barrel cleaning after each
shot for the first 5 shots prolongs the time at the range and well time at the range is time well spent. Plus alittle extra care in the beginning never hurts. Just my thaughts on the matter. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
I've gotten a couple of emails asking me to repost the research I did on barrel break-in and the use of moly coated bullets.
This has been on a couple of other boards, so I hope it helps.
Barrel Break-in and the use of Moly Coated Bullets
Iíve spent a lot of time on this board, the BR board and other shooting boards listening to members and what works for them. Conclusion, what works for some, doesnít work for others. Being an engineer in the telecommunications field, when itís broke or you donít understand something you go back to manufactures specs and schematics. So thatís kinda what I did on this subject.
Iíve talked with 4 metallurgist and 3 barrel manufactures (Rock Creek, Hart and Shilen), on the subject. From a scientific point of view, they all said and agreed to pretty much the same thing.
First, barrel break-in processes keep them in business. This shoot and clean, shoot and clean every round or few rounds break-in process only damages your brand new match barrel. Think of a car engine for a moment. Why do we use oil in the engine? To prevent metal-to-metal contact and reduce friction between two metal surfaces. Your barrel is no different from the engine.
Mike Rock at Rock Creek barrels gave me the most detailed explanations on barrels and ballistics. Mike has his degree in metallurgy; he was also the chief ballistics engineer for the Army for many years at the Aberdeen Proving grounds. Stan Rivenbark was one of the top ballistic engineers for Raytheon before he retired in the 70ís and also has a degree in metallurgy. I also talked with two local metallurgists here in North TX. I confirmed my findings with each person to see if they agreed or disagreed. Conclusion, they all agreed with each otherís assessments.
When Mike worked at Aberdeen proving grounds, the Army used high speed bore videos with mirrors, thermal imaging and computers to analyze any and everything that happens when the firing pin hits the primer and the round goes off. When the primer ignites there is enough pressure to move the bullet forward into the lands. The bullet then stops. As the primer ignites the powder, more pressure builds moving the bullet forward where it can stop again. Once there is enough pressure from the round going off, the bullet is moved down out the barrel. All of this happens in nanoseconds (billionths of a second). Your bullet starts and stops at least twice and sometimes three times before it leaves the barrel. This is fact.
If you clean every round or every few rounds during your barrel break-in process or clean your rifle so well after shooting that you take it down to the bare metal, youíve created a metal-to-metal contact surface for the next time you shoot the gun. So whatís the problem with this you ask? Just like your car engine, metal-to-metal contact will sheer away layers of metal from each surface. So if your bullet is starting and stopping two or three times as it leaves the barrel, thatís two or three places for metal-to-metal contact to happen as well as the rest of your bore. The use of JBís and Flitz can and will take you down to metal-to-metal contact. For all intents and purposes, JBís and Flitz are not the most ideal products for cleaning your rifle.
According to Mike Rock and the other barrel manufactures agreed, all you need to avoid this metal-to-metal contact is a good burnish in the barrel. Shilen, Hart and Rock Creek will all void your barrel warranty if you shoot moly bullets and for good reason. This is not to say that moly is necessarily bad for a barrel, but it is when applied to bullets. There is no way possible to coat a bore with moly bullets.
The bullet contact surface in the barrel is only so big. It's like trying to wax your entire car with just a tinny dab of wax and starting over at the exact same place each time you apply more wax to applicator. You just can't cover the entire car, but you get a nice wax build up at the starting point. Same thing with trying to moly coat your barrel with moly bullets. You get a nice moly build up right in the throat area and not much moly beyond that.
When your round goes off, moly comes off the contact surface of the bullet in the throat area of the rifle and is bonded to the barrel do to the excessive heat and pressure. Were not talking coated or adhered to, weíre talking bonded to. In addition, add carbon fouling and some of the copper jacket from the bullet to the mix. Follow this up with another round and youíve now embedded the carbon fouling and copper jacket between layers of bonded moly. This is the beginning of the black moly ring, which ruins countless barrels and is so hard; it can hardly be scraped off with a screwdrivers corner edge. This is what happened to a brand new Shilen SS select match barrel I had to have replaced with less than 400 rounds through it.
For those of you who think youíll clean moly out of your barrel with a solvent, youíre kidding yourself. Name one gun cleaning solvent that will dissolve Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2). Youíre not going to find one. I understand some cleaning products will remove loose moly from the barrel, but Iím unaware of any product that will dissolve bonded on Molybdenum Disulfide from a barrel and not destroy the barrel steel in the process. Some moly users say they brush it out when they clean their rifles. Without looking through a borescope, how would you know? Doug Shilen at Shilen barrels cut the throat section out of my ruined barrel to see the specific damage once he determined it was toast. He could barely scrape the moly out with the sharp edge of a screwdriver on the barrel I ruined. I could have scrubbed with a bronze brush for days on end and I wouldnít have touched it.
When I talked to Mike about my new barrel and the barrel break-in process, this is what he had to say. He first hand laps each barrel with a lead lap. He then uses two products from Sentry Solutions, a product called Smooth Coat, which is an alcohol and moly based product. He applies wet patches of Smooth Coats until the bore is good and saturated and lets it sit until the alcohol evaporates. The barrel now has loose moly in it. Next he uses a product called BP-2000, which is a very fine moly powder. Applied to a patch wrapped around a bore brush, he makes a hundred passes or so through the barrel very rapidly before having to rest. He repeats this process with fresh patches containing the moly powder a few more times. What he is doing is burnishing the barrel surface with moly and filling in any fine micro lines left by the hand lapping. He then uses a couple of clean patches to knock out any remaining moly left in the bore.
With the barrel burnished with moly, this will prevent any metal-to-metal contact during the barrel break in process. My instructions for barrel break-in were quite simple. Shoot 20 rounds (non-moly bullets) with no cleaning, as this will further burnish the barrel. Done! Now shoot and clean using your regular regiment of cleaning and if you have to use JBís or flitz type products, go very easy with them, or better yet avoid them. Never clean down to bare metal.
He said most of the cleaning products do a great job, donít be afraid to use a brush and go easy on the ammonia-based products for removing copper fouling. Basically donít let the ammonia-based products remain in the barrel for long lengths of time.
Well thatís the long a skinny from the scientific point of view on the subject. If you're ever in doubt about the real condition of your barrel, take it someone who has a bore scope and even better if someone has a bore scope that can magnify the view. You may be surprised at what is really going on in your barrel.
I'm sure this will spark a debate here and there, but that's good thing. The more information we have, the better off we'll be.
Distance is not an issue, but the wind will make it interesting!
So, we want to pre-coat our rifle barrels, but maybe we don't want to use moly, or maybe we do. That may be a hard question to follow, or answer. I have heard that shooters who use shooters choice/kroil mix of two to one have desireable results too. I always clean a new barrel, because i don't think they do at the factory. There may be some tiny metal chips in there, and i don't want to send a high velocity round throug there to scratch things up. But back to barrel prep, prior to break in or shooting. I have heard of alcohol/moly being used, but still am not convinced. The water/moly thing scares me. There must be something else out there that might work, and is available. I only wish i had a bore scope and the time and money to know for sure. I hope this does start a debate, how else are ideas born! I don't know if I care for the "steel wool" idea. Sending anything down a bore that might be as hard as the bore worys me too. Why not just lapp like the big boys do? Anyone can get lapping compound, and all the big barrel man. do it, so it seems. Opinions?
Portate bien o te lleva el cucuy
Broke my new Krieger Barrel in today. shot one. Cleaned! Shot one cleaned did this three more times. Shot 3 cleaned, shot 5 cleaned, shot 7 and the barrel Cleaned up with 4 Wet patches. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] It's Load testing next time. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]