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Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

 
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  #15  
Old 12-03-2004, 03:05 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: GF Montana
Posts: 467
Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

First I must say this site totally rocks. Long Range Demon TacKac (LRDT ) gets major Kudos for his excellent post. As my existentialist guru is trying to teach me (and LRDT points out), you canít have a meaningful dialog without precise definitions.

I got flamed off another site for asking this exact question Ė they were unanimous Ė no shooting over 300 yds. ****, I was taking several deer a year with my cheapo .243 win at 350 yards with my 87gr reloads. It got boring. I was winning the 500 yard silhouette contests at my range - with my cheapo 30-06 (165g BT) Ė and we were free standing Ė no support, no bipod, no bench. One guy could hit the pig 50% more often than me (using his custom .243 with a bull barrel) Ė but he rarely had the momentum at that range to knock the pig over. The two guys with 300 mags ( on win, one weatherby spayer) rarely hit the pig. I attributed this to anticipation of kick.

Me bad. Range Iím looking at is to optimize the gun for 750 yds. Not ultra long range, but definitely long range. Itís for use at my friendís ranch outside GF Montana Ė which is windier than the windy city. The 5 points on his ranch donít let you get closer than 500 yds very often. Sometimes I can sneak to within 350 yds, but I donít have time to use a rangefinder (when less than 400 yds).

Major Kudos to Kirby too. I would much rather have a barrel from my buddy Daniel Lilja. Why does everyone miss the major point that a 1:15 twist Lilja heavy barrel will give me outstanding accuracy with a 125gr bullet?

Numbers are boring Ė take a look at my graphs at
300 RUM vs Kirby Mag
also look at :
7mm vs 300 vs 257 Kirby Mag
Kirbyís gun does win vs the 300 RUM, but not by huge margins. The graphs show the 7mm the best perf. I think with a custom bullet the 300 RUM would do much better. But the graphs show out to 750 yds no meaningfull difference. I had to go to 1000 yds in the drop so you could even see a difference.

I made the graphs with Shoot http://www.ballistics-software.com/ Ė kinda crappy software but itís free (and forever if you write a simple registry modification program [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Sorry Kirby, Like GW I have AADHD (http://www.adult-adhd.com/) (and dyslexia) so I skipped all those boring numbers u spent so much time on. I did notice your time seems way off tho.

Budget limit is about $2,000 (not counting glass). ( I can pick up a used 300 RUM for less than $500 leaving me $1,500 for upgrades)

RBrowning writes (hey, are u any relation to my great great uncle John Moses Browning?)
While b1g_b0re used the clasic "milk bottle full of powder with an asprin on top" approach, he didn't take into account the damnable effects of drag, therfore he used a light for caliber bullet instead of the more aerodynamic heavy for caliber bullets. If he had necked his case down to a 25 he would have been pretty close to what Roy Weatherby did in 50 years ago. It worked then and it still works today.

I think u have the analogy backwards. The physics is very simple. F = MA or what we want is A = F/M. Given that M is fixed, we are left with A is directly proportional to F. Force is just pressure * Area. Again, letís assume P is constant (a reasonable assumption given high pressure RUMs and Kirbys). Now F = P*Ar (Area), and Ar = pi*r^2 or F is directly proportional to caliber squared. Roy on the other hand did things the old fashioned way (he had no other option, living in the ice ages  He used an ultra long freebore so he could increase P (increased freebore resulting in decreased accuracy and increased muzzle erosion). Roy was not after accuracy (despite his marketing department slogans)

But your right that bullet drag is proportional to the CUBE of V * caliber squared Ė this will be the dominating factor at long range.

As my charts show, there is little difference between the Kirby mag and the gun Kirby will build for me in all areas sans wind. Perhaps wind is what puts the Kirby mag on top.

So far itís Kirby vs. Kirby [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

I need to find a better bullet to compete with Kirbys custom projectiles.

STL: writes b1g_b0re, lose the lightweight bullets and try a 190 to 220 grain bullet with high ballistic coefficient in that 300 RUM. If you can shoot it accurately - you'll have a top-notch long range slayer.
Iíll probably have Kirby rebarrel my 338 RUM to shoot 180 or perhaps 200 gr BTís. If If I need anything heaver than that, Iíll go with my 375 RUM or one of my custom 50 BMGs.

KEEP IN MIND Ė I do get shots at 4 to 5 pt Bucks at less than 400 yards with no time to use a rangefinder.

Roper rites (sorry, couldnít resist the phonetic alliteration) your barrel may not last past load testing that throat will wash out pretty quick.

Not true : with Kirby boring a tight throat with my dummy cartridge. You would get fast throat erosion given the factory throat and hot 125 BT loads.

Speedbump : dang, I had to redo all my charts with your awesome suggestion. If your data is accurate ( I dropped velocity to 3350 ) Ė Iíd say you have the winner. Check out the graphs at

7mm vs 300 vs 257 Kirby Mag

I own all the RUMS EXCEPT the 7mm. Maybe this is the direction I should go.
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  #16  
Old 12-03-2004, 03:14 PM
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: GF Montana
Posts: 467
Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

7mm RUM with Shilen Barrels

Should I just buy this gun? How do I know it doesn't shoot like my nail guns?

7mm Rem Ultra magnum. Action blueprinted and barrel installed by Shilen Barrels "BARRELED BY SHILEN 7MM UTRA" engraved on 26" hand lapped match #6 contour heavy barrel. Shilen trigger and recoil lug installed and adjusted by them as well. HS Precision Sendero stock, Custom jewling on bolt. Rifle comes with Leupold Mark4 rings and bases and Leupold Vari- XIII 6.5X20 Matte scope. 100% Condition. purchased for 2699.00 without scope one year ago. Now selling for 1600.00 with scope. Only 3 rounds ever fired.
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  #17  
Old 12-03-2004, 05:07 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

Big Bore, I have a 7STW and I shoot the 156 Cauterucio bullets. So I like where speedbump is coming from. I also shoot a 338 lapua with 300 SMK's. Notice I shoot the heavier bullets for caliber. (by the way the 156 cauterucio has a bc of 615) I would shoot the 176 but with the 9 twist krieger I have it shoots the 156's great. So if it aint broke I dont fix it.

Anyway, forget velocity! Dont be a velocity freak. The heavier higher bc bullets are more accurate. I love my flat shooting 7stw and my not-so-flat 338 lapua. The thing they have in common is that at longer ranges the wind is the big issue not the elevation. So I higher bc pill is better. I shot 140's in my 7stw and they shot like crap. Now I shoot 1/2" with the 156's.

Buy a rem 700, rebarrel in 7 STW with a nice 28" lilja, krieger, shilen, or whater qualty barrel you like. Use a 9 twist and shoot those 156 cauterucio's. (I'm suggesting these over the 176's since you like the faster flatter shooters). Also restock with a Mcmillian remington hunter stock while your at it. Unless you want a tactical stock.


Good Luck!
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  #18  
Old 12-03-2004, 06:16 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: GF Montana
Posts: 467
Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

Great Post.
The 7mm RUM at Deal of the centurary
looks like exactly what I need. How do I know it doesn't shoot like my nail guns?
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  #19  
Old 12-03-2004, 06:58 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 397
Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

John M,

I've shot the 156 through mine too & they held even a little tighter than the 176s at short range. No complaints. The 176s buck the wind better at 1K, so I mainly shoot them.

I tested some of Don "Shaky" 'Groove Bullets' and they were superb. Although they were only 135 grains, the BIGGEST group I shot was in the .3s. The best, well, .065" at 100 yards. I haven't been able to get access to the 1,000 yard range I had shot on, so I can't verify their accuracy further out.

Big Bore - the data is correct. The velocity was chronographed and the performance is in a different category altogether than a 6.5-284. This is out of a 30" Krieger in heavy Palma taper, Remington action, McMillain Prone stock, Jewell trigger, Nightforce 12-42x56mm scope (no brake). My primary load is 90.8 grains of 5010 pulldown powder, bullets seated .005" into the lands.

It does eat barrels, although most of the rounds fired were at/near max since there was ZERO load data available when I began the project. I had it set-back last year & the barrel is now @ 28.5" (the .065" group was fired after the set-back). It's not as efficient as a 7mmSTW for the powder burned, but it chucks the heavier bullets better IMHO. The closest I can come to an accurate windage chart is to take a .308 Palma chart for a 155 Sierra at 1,000 yards and divide the MOA by FIVE.
[img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[ 12-03-2004: Message edited by: speedbump ]
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  #20  
Old 12-04-2004, 12:16 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,791
Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

Big Bore1,

I would agree with your numbers in general comparision but also let me respond.

The 130 gr Bonded Core FBHP is a big game hunting bullet designed for taking deer out to 500 to 600 yards.

I see you took things out to 1000 yards in this comparision.

In that case I would select the 145 gr ULD Rebated Boattail that Wildcat Bullets designed specifically for the 257 Allen Magnum.

This bullet has a B.C. of .738 from initial testing and I am conservatively predicting 3400 to 3450 fps out of a 30" barrel.

So we really need to compare apples to apples instead of a big game flat based bullet to a ULD design like you are comparing.

Energy, yes there is no comparision but again, these rounds are designed for deer hunting out to 600 yards in sporter weight rifles.

With the ULD the 257 will easily run with the 7mm RUM with any bullet you load in it in a 30" barrel.

Again, I fully agree that for extreme range hunting or even shooting the larger calibers are going to be hard to beat. At ranges inteh 600 yard range, my AMs will walk with any deer round on the planet if they live up to performance goals [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] !

For 1000 yard shooting, weither they are needed or not, a big 338 will always be my choice in caliber over all others.

Again, just my opinion and I agree this forum does rock. There are enough like minded well educated guys here to really have a good quality discussion.

We certainly do not have to agree on everything, thats the best part about this sport, there are different ways to skin a cat and they are all a blast [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] !!

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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