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Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

 
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  #1  
Old 11-29-2004, 05:15 PM
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Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

I'm thinking of getting a new 300 RUM, sending it straight to Shilen where they will install their best heavy SS tube with a 1:15 twist and a very tight throat using my dummy 125gr BT cartridge. It won't even shoot 150's unless I seat the BT very deep. They check the action for squareness and fix any problems - only $724 + $30 S&H - gun is a bit less. I'd also have Kirby add a Holland QD and trigger job.

I'll top it off with a nice scope. Gun only, it's less than $1800 and I've got a bran spanking new spare barrel for my other 300 RUM.

Can anyone come up with a flatter / more accurate deer/antelope gun for less? WIth the Holland QD and dimunitive 125gr BT, it shouldn't kick any more than my 270 WSM.
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  #2  
Old 12-01-2004, 12:27 AM
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Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

Well Hell I'll bite on this one ..no else seems to be? your saying ultimate long range? I would say only IMHO that you may be going in the wrong way in a sense ...it really all depends on what your callin long rang? because yeah your gunna push a 125BT out ther pretty good and with shere horsepower but what kind of energy are you going to have left to impact the critter with? I don't know maybe I'm way off here but I personaly consider anything 1k and beyond long range ..don't get me wrong 600-700 is long range too but there are a ton of carts that will effectivly take critters at that range..so thats why I consider (long range) 1k and betond because it does take a special formula to get there with enough authority, to make accurate clean kills, and taking wind and all other of mother natures conditions on any givin day into factor here I would say maybe your looking at a 800-1000 gun but I would reallly be thinking about launching a 125 at 1k in the wind ect at a critter...I would say just go the other way ...man your going to probably range it anyways..well heck you would have too at that range so the crittter won't know your there ...or shouldn't! so a big 300 grainer pushing close to 3k or a little over Range it dope it and dump it! simple. it would be cool to have a lazer like that thing would be probably to 600-700 yds but man barrel life comes into play here too that thig is gunna roast yor Sh%t in NO! time. like I said I'm just speakin my mind so no offenes..just thought I would through it out there and see what we got? [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] it's just a simple fact High B.C. will always win on windy days uhh well maybe not so simple...but I think it is lol! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
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  #3  
Old 12-01-2004, 09:50 AM
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Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

b1g_b0re,

Well, I quess I have to make a comment about this silliness!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Personally I think you should just have me build you a 257 Allen Magnum.

Go ahead and get that 300 RUM rifle and send it to me. I will fit it with a 30" #6 contour Lilja(not heavy at all, just plenty for fine groups and still able to be packed all day). Fully Accurize the action, fit a Holland Comp Recoil Lug to it and bed the action to the stock.

Loaded with the 130 gr Bonded Core FBHP(b.c. of .550, s.d. of .281) this would not only be a flatter shooting rifle out to 800 yards but it would also be a much better on game performer when used on larger deer.

Lets look at the numbers.

I do not know what barrel length you were looking at with Shilen but I will give you a full 4000 fps with the 125 gr BT out of the 300 RUM. I feel this is a realistic velocity depending on barrel length used.

Here are the specs with this bullet with a scope hight of 2" above the line of the bore and zeroed at 400 yards.

100 yards---3656fps---+3.0"----0.6" drift
200---------3328------+5.4"----2.6"
300---------3023------+4.6"----6.1"
400---------2738-------0.0"----11.3"
500---------2472----- -9.3"----18.5"
600---------2222----- -24.2"---27.8"
700---------1986----- -46.2"---39.8"
800---------1766----- -77.1"---54.8"

Not bad at all for a light bullet.

Lets compare it to teh 257 Allen Magnum with the 130 gr Wildcat loaded to 3700 fps in the 30" 3 groove Lilja:

100 yards---3493 fps---+3.2"----0.4" drift
200---------3289-------+5.4"----1.8"
300---------3094-------+4.5"----4.1"
400---------2908--------0.0"----7.5"
500---------2729------ -8.7"----12.0"
600---------2558------ -22.0"---17.7"
700---------2393------ -40.7"---24.8"
800---------2236------ -65.4"---33.4"

So lets see, bothhave the same mid range trajectory of around +5.4" in the 220 yard range. At 500 yards the big 25 has a .6" less drop, at 600 it is 2.2" flatter, at 700 yards it is around 5.5" flatter and at 800 yards it is 8.5" flatter.

The 257 AM is flatter shooting out to 800 yards and it just gets more advantage past that but I will admit it is not by a dramatic amount.

BUT!!

Lets look at wind drift.

At 400 yards the 25 has about 34% less drift them the 300(7.5" vs 11.3").

At 500 yards it has 36% less drift(12.0" vs 18.5")

At 600 yards it has a 37% edge(17.7" vs 27.8")

At 700 yards it is 38% less wind drift(24.8 vs 39.8)

and at 800 yards it is 39% less(33.4 vs 54.8)

Now one might argue that the 300 will have more energy on target with the faster bullet. That is true out until about 150 yards where the 300 RUM has 3379 ft/lbs compared to the 3317 ft/lbs for the 257 AM.

At the 400 yard zero, the energy numbers are 2441 ft lbs for the 25 and 2081 ft/lbs for the big 300

At 800 yards we are looking at 1443 ft/lbs for the big 25 and 866 ft/lbs for the 300 RUM.

In velocity the big 25 catches the hyper fast 300 RUM before 250 yards and at 400 yards the 25 has 2908 fps compared to 2738 fps for the RUM.

At 800 yards it is 2236 fps for the 25 compared to 1766 fps for the 300.

More importantly for long range shooting. The time of flight out to 800 yards is nearly a ful tenth of a second less then with the 300.

Now I can't say I will beat the price you have for this package from Shilen but I will say that is what I charge for one of my complete rifles using a 30" Lilja barrel with either an H-S Precision or a Boyds Laminated wood stock, either thumbhole or classic sporter style.

Brake would be a bit extra.

Lets talk about recoil. The 300 RUM is a pussy cat with a Holland QD installed. Recoils about like a 270 Win I would say from the many I have fitted and range tested afterward.

The 257 AM in a 9 lb rifle will recoil about like that of a 243 at the most. My 257 STW built on this same rifle platform allow me to see the bullet impact at any range which is a really cool thing if you have never witnessed this on big game.

Accuracy wise, I do not know what Shilen says their rifles will shoot, I am sure it is 1/2 moa or around there. I will say my Extreme sporters will hold under 1/2 moa. The 257 STW holds the 130 gr Wildcats into the .3's at 100 yards and in the 1 1/2" range at 500 yards which I would think would be on par with a heavy barreled Shilen Job.

Plus on game performance would be dramatically better with the bonded core bigh B.C. bullet.

Well, just took my shot at the challange laid down. These numbers are all projections but I feel very confident on teh ability of this round to reach these performance levels. Come the middle od Jan. rifles will be on the range being tested for real world data.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Kirby Allen(50)

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Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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  #4  
Old 12-01-2004, 10:22 AM
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Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

Kirby

You're comparing a very low drag bullet from a 257 to a very high drag bullet from a 30.

The numbers are obviously going to lean toward the 257 by a wide margin in that case.

Comparing the 257 to a 30 cal 210 JLK running 3200 fps = 2130 fps at 800 yards, 2110 FPE, -96" path, and 30" of drift in 10 mph wind. Also having the advantage of hitting them with larger frontal area.
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  #5  
Old 12-01-2004, 11:03 AM
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Posts: 138
Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

Yeah Kirby ?? heck you know I want one of your allen mags really bad and I"m just waiting for all the R&D to be done ...that was not even a fair comparison ..even! the new allen mags youir leaning towards Higher! B.C. Bullets Low drag... I would have to compare this silly 300 RUM shooting a week 125 grait BT close to the .257 STW...and we all know that is why the new allen mags have come on the scene ! more downrange eneergy better BC's actually just a plain better use of all, that powder..I mean your spitting out 100 grain BT's out of the .257 STW at over 4k or right at it .....and the .257 Allen mag I don't recall right off the top of my head but it was slower but WAY!!! more efficient and would be a Solid LONG!!! Range Gun it far exceded the .257 STW's Performance. Not trying to call anybody on anything but this topic seems very black and white to me ...maybe I'm just silly? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

I mean I think there is a reason they call the big .338's the big dogs?? Not because the shoot big ass slugs! thery are very effiecent and can produce velocties that can obtain SUPER HIGH B.C.'s Am I wrong? am I Silly?

[ 12-01-2004: Message edited by: Long Range Demon TacKac ]
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  #6  
Old 12-01-2004, 11:23 AM
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Posts: 247
Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

Brent, LRDT,
I think that the reason Kirby compared the 130 gr 25 cal to the 125 grain 30 cal is to make the point that if you want a light bullet you are better to go to a small diameter to get it. He didn't choose the 125 grain,30 cal bullet out of the blue, it was what was chosen in the original post.

B1g_b0re asked "Can anyone come up with a flatter / more accurate deer/antelope gun for less? WIth the Holland QD and dimunitive 125gr BT, it shouldn't kick any more than my 270 WSM." and Kirby believes he has a better option. While b1g_b0re used the the clasic "milk bottle full of powder with an asprin on top" approach, he didn't take into account the damnable effects of drag, therfore he used a light for caliber bullet instead of the more aerodynamic heavy for caliber bullets. If he had necked his case down to a 25 he would have been pretty close to what Roy Weatherby did in 50 years ago. It worked then and it still works today.
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  #7  
Old 12-01-2004, 01:51 PM
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Re: Ultimate economy long range deer/antelope gun

Brent,

I totally agree with your comments, a 300 Rum firign a 125 gr pill at 4000 fps is totally different then a 300 RUM driving a 210 gr JLK to 3200 fps. At long range the heavy is tops by a LONG margin.

But, I would also like to state that Richard Graves and I are designing these round to compete directly with the big 300's and 338 rounds by providing flatter trajectories and less wind drift.

Richard has designed a 145 gr ULD rebated Boattail for my 257 AM with a B.C. from prelim tests at .738!!!

Now the 257 AM should be able to hit 3350 to 3450 fps with this bullet out of the 30" barreled rifles they will be chambered in.

How does the 300 RUM with the 210 gr JLK at 3200 fps compare to this load?

Sure I give you the frontal area issue, no arguement here, I also give you the energy factor, but these are designed for deer and pronghorn.

The 145 gr ULD in 257 has a B.C. higher then even the 240 gr SMK which is around the .720 range.

What kind of round would it take to match the 3400 fps velocity of the 257 AM with that big 240 gr SMK. It would have to be much larger then the 30-378 in a 30" barrel thats for sure.

Even against the mighty 338 rounds with the 300 gr SMK with its .790 to .800 B.C.

The velocity advantage of the 257 AM will perfrom very solidly against these monsters as even my 34.5" barreled 338 Kahn will only hit 3100 fps with the 300 gr SMK, compared again to 3400 fps for the 257 AM.

Please remember that I designed my rounds to be used in 9 to 9.5 lb big game rifles and designed to offer the deer and pronghorn hunter ligitimate 500-600 yard range without the need for major hold adjustment. Also they must produce minimal recoil in this weight rifle.

I just wanted to design a round that everyone would be able to shoot well and these three smaller caliber rounds using the latest in bullet technology will do that. To what degee I will have to wait and see how they perform in the real world, not on paper.

I also agree that for extreme range shooting, +1000 yards, the big 300's and 338s are king. I may change my mind on that when I get my 270 AM running in a heavy rifle driving the 169.5 gr ULDs to 3350 fps with their .750 B.C. but that has yet to be proven.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

allenmagnum@gmail.com
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