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Ric's optic comparison

 
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  #1  
Old 09-21-2005, 03:41 PM
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Location: colorado
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Ric\'s optic comparison

Ric,
Ok based on that other thread I have a few questions. The first is what exact models and makes of scopes did you get to see side by side? What power scopes were they? 1" or 30mm tubes? What were the conditions? time of year? and just your overall opinion and determination based on your experience. Also how do you think each one is applicable to the long range hunter? This is really what I'm looking for because I doubt I'd ever have the chance to do something like this. Thanks for taking the time to answer. I really appriciate it.
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  #2  
Old 09-21-2005, 04:43 PM
 
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Re: Ric\'s optic comparison

Keep in mind this is my opinion... take that for what it is worth.. LOL...

OK Models all put to 12X

S&B 3-12 PMII 34 mm tube 50mm obj
Nikon 4-16 Tactical 30mm tube 50mm obj
Nightforce 3-15 NXS 30 mm tube 50 mm obj
USO Sn-3 3.2-17 ( not my scope ) 30mm tube 44mm obj
Lupy 6.5-20 M1 30mm tube 50mm obj


daytime conditions we sunny and bright about 75* looking at sage colored hills and distant forest.

nighttime was with NO moon looking at distant houses and lights. Also the length of time before you could not see anything in the sage.

Brightness
1. S&B
2. Nikon, NXS
3. Lupy
4. USO

Contrast
1. S&B
2.NXS
3. Nikon, Lupy
4. USO

Clarity
1. S&B
2.USO, Nikon
3. NXS
4. Lupy

Low light ablity
1. S&B
2. Nikon,
3 NXS, lupy
4. USO

Reticles.

1. NXS
2. USO
3. S&B
4 lupy, nikon

S&B need options like the NXS

Turrets...

overal ( with exceptions )
1. S&B
the turrets have very close clicks but the Yellow window keep syou without question knowing where you are at at all times!
2. USO big large EREK knob is incredible I didn't like the cap for it though!
3. NXS zero stop and very positive clicks keep syou informed at all times.
4 Nikon and lupy about the same lupy is stiffer but Nikon feels more positive.

Side focus.

1. S&B, NXS
2. USO
3 Lupy
4. Nikon ( seems to remain near the infinity make within a dot or 2 after 300 yards.

I have to make a statment concerning the lowlight portion...

if you can have a lit ret. it is well worth every penny for a hunting situation. the lowlight gathering abiltity and the ability to see the target in lowlight was doen without the lit ret. options.

if I had to rate the lit ret.
1. S&B
2. USO
3. NXS


speaking of strictly long range hunting...

I would ( if money wasn't and option )
S&B
NXS
USO
Nikon
Lupy

Money being considered
NXS
Nikon
Lupy

I have to say thought the NXS is kind of and in between ( $1150 ish )

NIkon and lupy at about $900 ish

if in fact the Nikon had the lit ret. in 4-16 it would be just after the NXS because of the zero stop if nikon had the Zero stop I would choose it above the NXS

ok if ya need any explainations or more details let me know.
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  #3  
Old 09-21-2005, 07:09 PM
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sask. Canada
Posts: 2,410
Re: Ric\'s optic comparison

Ric,
Thanks for some interesting info. Scope testing could be a more exact science it we had access to the optical instruments used for assessing camera lenses but... Takes a bunch of time, I like to make my assements after shooting a few scopes for a year or so. Big problem might be what your eyes like and what my eyes like could be unique and different. Lots of good stuff there tho.
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  #4  
Old 09-22-2005, 12:03 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 658
Re: Ric\'s optic comparison

Rick, i'm working on the reticle situation. I was out for a steak and several beers the night before last with S&B technical guy Andreas, Chris Thomas and another guy from Prem Ret and a couple of US Marines. Now of course there was a lot of pull up a sand bag, swing the tilly lamp and listen to war stories,tales of shore patrol, her Majesties MP's, how to start a riot in Norther Ireland, Korean and Japaneese schnapps drinks, the promotion ladder, British humour, Royal Marines, but in between i have certainly got the S&B tech guy convinced about the reticles and a bunch of other stuff, he in turn has about convinced Hans Bender. the fly in the ointment is the loden clad teutonic market research team. who's motto seems to be, Hov kud von pozzibly vant ein recticle (sp) das wir don't producen, wir haben teutonic optical excellence, any way surfice to say that the market research team are a little conservative.

What i want to see is a MOA dot reticle, like the Gen 2 mildot, but with spacing/dots/hash marks set at MOA distances and not miliradian distances, adjustments in MOA too. Presonaly ive no use for MOA, i'm a meters km and milliradians man, but there is a shed load of guys out there who will never change from yards, inches, and MOA.
I also want to see thinner versions of the P4 ret, and infact of all of the reticles, I've a 4-16x50 with the klein ret in it(like a gen 2 mildot but thinner) it is perfect.
Andreas suggested if i got enough guys to email S&B with what we wanted, then that would be the fastest way to get the ball rolling.
Pete
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  #5  
Old 09-22-2005, 06:21 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Ric\'s optic comparison

Ian, Pete,

Obviously this is what appealed to my eyes and my ability or non ability to use scope the way they were intended.

The truth is S&B could take the high end market with tactical guys and just all around well off hunters if the rets were thinner. This is where NXS has the advantage. The thin etched ret. combined with the ability to light it and the various options keep them in the game.
If S&B had the R2 or an MLR. Regardless of metric or English ..and made them thinner... WOW

I love my S&B scope. Money is the only limiting factor for not having more.

I also have to say... Nikon is the real sleeper in this little comparison...
I have given it a workout over the past week ... cranking' one way then another.. then re-checkin zero...etc...
the clarity and brightness are unbelievable! IF Nikon had a Gen 2 Ret. lupy would be in serious trouble and if they lit the ret. up in the 4-16 , oh man ... if there was some sort of Zero stop option... holy crap...yeah that's the ticket...
I realize it may bring the price to $1150ish now you are in the NXS range. Nikon may need to evaluate some options but if they do some tweaking here or there they have a real chance at storming into the tactical market.
What they need is a bit of time to prove their scopes are tough too.. the MK IV has great durability. That typically takes time to prove.

USO's are great scopes and built like a tank, which is kinda a love hate thing. They are bulky and heavy as well as look like something on steroids. The EREK knob is outstanding The custom scope idea is a nice touch, it is one of the only places you can truly get a scope built to your specs. I personally just don't like the look and weight of the ones I have had.

Lupy will always be a contender. They are US made and have a no hassle warranty with exceptionally fast turn around time. This will forever keep them in the game. The glass is good, it is bright, it is clear. But isn't the best and there are brighter and clearer scopes out there. ( I think this is what prompted this thread )
The S&B and Swaro glass is far superior I really can't see who can argue that.

Now if I could only get an optic company to put me on payroll as a field tester... hmmm... maybe if I had my wife pose as me and then we played the ole switcher-roo thing....hmmmm...
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  #6  
Old 09-22-2005, 07:38 AM
ds ds is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Cz
Posts: 235
Re: Ric\'s optic comparison

I have been down this road a bit. My S&B PM2 4-16x50 was a great optic. Probably the best optic I have owned. Surprisingly my smallest groups at 100m and 1km were shot with the S&B. I say that because I like more magnification and a finer reticle. One thing which I really came to appreciate was the none critical parallax focus.

I also had a Nightforce NXS 12-42x56, which I thought would work out a lot better for target shooting. In many ways it did. The extra magnification did away with the need for a spotting scope below 300m. The NP-R2 reticle was very nice (and fine). However there were annoying things for a scope that cost an arm and a leg, mainly the lit reticle is naf needing a screwdriver to adjust the intensity, the whole ocular rotation is a bit of a pain and the big one for me was the very critical parallax adjustment. I know many times I was not able to set the parallax correctly and I am sure I got some lateral dispersion in groups in quick strings. It sort of spoiled the NP-R2 reticle for me. I did hours and hours of testing at ranges from 100m to 650m with the S&B and NXS side by side. To get the S&B parallax free whilst keeping a sharp focus was fast and easy but next to impossible for me with the NXS. The disclaimer here is that this could well have a lot to do with my eyes. I say that because I have looked through half a dozen NXS and found them all a pain to get the parallax right.

I am hoping the answer will be the S&B PM2 5-25x56. If it can be done with a klein reticle and still illuminated so much the better. S&B have got the idea now with more magnification.

David.
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  #7  
Old 09-22-2005, 08:44 AM
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Posts: 658
Re: Ric\'s optic comparison

we should all email S&B and prove to the market research team that there is a large market out there for the right kind of options, it took me 10 years to get a 4-16x42PMII, but i think the next ball will roll quicker,
David, i emailed you earlier but it bounced.
Pete
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