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Kirby Allen 224 AM progress?

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Unread 02-04-2006, 04:49 AM
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Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
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Re: Kirby Allen 224 AM progress?


Assuming you measured at about the same point on the barrel I would have expected the temperatures to be closer together. <font color="blue">That's good. I too would have thought they would have been closer together </font>

With a 7mmWby mag I burn almost exactly the same amount of powder as you do. My barrel would be a lot hotter than that . <font color="blue">In the summer my bbl, Rem 700 sporter blue bbl would have been too hot to touch. </font>

There are two questions at hand.

Why did heat production drop so dramatically between shots for 4350? <font color="blue">That's what we'er shootin' for!! Pun </font>

Another couple of shots and there would have been no increase. <font color="blue">I wondered about that when recording it but took extra precautions to ensure that I measured what I measured. Will shoot some more. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the observations. Helps one to get through his own stinkin' thinkin'. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Guess I should improve my test setup a bit and do some more shootin' [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The test set up: Cut neck off of 222 Rem. Filled w/J-B Weld Kwik set. Placed this fancy little test device on top of the bbl right at the white spacer behind the fore arm cap.

Just prior to the JB Weld hardening, I pressed wife's pyrex digital thermometer in to make an indent w/the bottom close to the bbl. [Fat chance of finding a thermocouple in southeast Idaho [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] - Could have found one out at the Idaho National Laboratory, but since 9/11 the rules of engagement have changed and my badge ran out Tuesday [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]]

With that gizmo on top of the bbl, it is easy to see that the measured temp is going to be less than the actual bbl temp but the rise should be the same. BBL never got really warm to the touch though. [Think I should build a shooting house then I could control the temperature and remove the effects of the wind. Project for next week [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]]

Here's some more fuel for the fire:
All bullets were Sierra 2600s (250gr spbts)
All primers were Fed-215s
Loaded round weights are:
4350 loads - 586.9/586.3/589.7 grains
RL-22 loads- 563.4/563.1/563.7 grains

Think about that one for awhile. Case capacities for the 4350 loads were much less than for the RL-22 loads.[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

This is why the 338 Win is not a good platform for this swiss navy project except for testing its mechanical aspects.

Test sequence:
Shoot the shot.
Record velocity
Insert thermometer
Watch the temp rise until it steadied out then dropped 0.2 then recorded the highest number.
Then quickly repeat the sequence.

Would have been nice to have a thermocouple epoxied to the bbl, less mass, and a strip chart recorder as I have no idea of what the actual Tstart was for anything other than the first shot. (BTW I don't think even a 12 minute wait gets the bbl back to the original temp.

BTW-a wack w/a plastic mallet removed the test fixture. Then a cloth soaked in Gunk GREEN concentrated biodegradable Concentrated Cleaner plus some digging with the thumb hail removed all eveidence. (Just tho't I'd throw that in, its good stuff)

We'll rerun the speeriment this afternoon. I'm all out of 4350 and can't get enough RL-22 in the modified cases to be reasonable. Think I'll go w/RL-19 or even RL-15???

MOre data added:
I may be the slowest guy on the mountain . . . . but . . . . I'm on the mountain!
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Unread 02-04-2006, 07:56 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Potomac River
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Re: Kirby Allen 224 AM progress?

The graph looks much better. (obviously I am an old school engineer who likes and reads graphs). The lack of any difference between temperatures on the first shot is more apparent.

As you mention the missing piece of data is the pre-shoot temperature. This would give you a better estimate of net increase between shots.

It was my understanding that smaller case capacities would generate higher pressure but the confounding factor of the slightly slower burn rate of RL22 vs 4350 "confounds" the analysis.

I will take a gander around the house for a thermocouple. I can't think of anything that my son has torn apart recently that had one.
The Smokin Fur Rifle Club
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Unread 02-04-2006, 12:03 PM
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Re: Kirby Allen 224 AM progress?

Well I went and gandered around barefoot out to the garage in the rain. Thanks to all of the global warming, my feet didn't get cold, just a little wet.

I have found what you need but do not have the thermocouple probe.

A.W. Sperry made (in China) a SP-144 volt-ohm mamp tester that could be fitted with an optional thermocouple probe (p-10) and would read out the voltages /temperatures on the dial.

You might go out to your garage and check your volt / ohm meter and see if perhaps it will read too. Other wise check your electonics shop. Oops sorry, I forgot where you live there is only a gas station, post office and country western bar.
The Smokin Fur Rifle Club
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Unread 02-04-2006, 05:42 PM
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Re: Kirby Allen 224 AM progress?

RE: Thermocouple. Have a craftsman DMV #82018 that came w/thermocouple. Who knows where that thing went. Farmers don't have much call for such a thing and that's where I got it.

However the same looking Sears DVM, now Model 82400 is priced at 29 bucks and is packages w/thermocouple. Hmmmmmm, Sears is 30 miles away.........

Am all set up for next test.

Loaded 6 "check" cartridges w/Hornady 225 Interlocks and RL-15 powder. I All 6 cases are w/in a grain of 237.5 grains. Put in 62 grains of RL-15 cause that's what Alliant's book said.

Prep'd 6 "test" caseseach weighing w/in 1 gr of 234.5 gr.

The "test" cases have less volume. I increased the powder charge by 1.3 grains in hopes of attaining the same velocity as the lesser powder charge.

RL-15, volume wise, looks like it will work well. There is maybe 3 grains more volume than I am using. I don't think that case capacity is going to be a problem with this powder.

As my luck would have it, its snowing too hard for testing to be any fun and the chrono goes nuts in the snow.. So I guess I'll have to wait till Monday. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
I may be the slowest guy on the mountain . . . . but . . . . I'm on the mountain!
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Unread 02-05-2006, 07:30 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Kirby Allen 224 AM progress?

Fiftydriver: have you been able to calculate the BC of the 100 and 107 grain bullets you are using?
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Unread 02-05-2006, 05:46 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: west of Little Rock ,Ark.
Posts: 1,271
Re: Kirby Allen 224 AM progress?

What about a handheld laser thermometer . Might be able to borrow one from a mechanic you know .

Sure , swing on by Arkansas on your way to Montana from Idaho, we'll leave the light on [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Geese all gone north that
ducks never left
Deer season a memory hoarded
like a favorite hat
Spring wont you hurry so
Summer can come
Fall then will follow
The favorite of some
Till then we ponder and wonder anew
Those days of wonder so precious so few
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Unread 02-06-2006, 09:42 AM
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Re: Kirby Allen 224 AM progress?

Not yet, need more testing for that.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

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Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

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