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Bore solvents - Interesting thread

 
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  #1  
Old 09-08-2005, 11:30 AM
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Bore solvents - Interesting thread

BR central has a very interesting thread on bore solvents and what works and why.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26177

BH
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  #2  
Old 09-08-2005, 12:31 PM
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Re: Bore solvents - Interesting thread

always funny when the ammonia topic comes back around. Used to be considered evil and any barrel touching it would melt or blow up. Ain't so.

Copper fouling requires ammonia to remove (or an abrasive). Cheap and simple solution to our problem.

Since the posts show a preference to the stronger ammonia cleaner, I am surprised they did not use Barnes CR10. Have not come across a commercial product that cleans more agressively.

Personally, I use janitorial grade ammonia. You have to go to a commercial cleaning supply company to buy. This stuff is strong - outside only!!!!!

However, any copper in that bore is gone right now. Wipe it in, wipe it out, an oily patch, dry patch, good to go.

A gallon cost me $20 Cdn and will last several lifetimes.

Jerry
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2005, 09:47 PM
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Re: Bore solvents - Interesting thread

[ QUOTE ]
Since the posts show a preference to the stronger ammonia cleaner, I am surprised they did not use Barnes CR10. Have not come across a commercial product that cleans more agressively.


[/ QUOTE ]


I can see you haven't tried Coppermelt! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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  #4  
Old 09-09-2005, 12:11 AM
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Re: Bore solvents - Interesting thread

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="purple"> always funny when the ammonia topic comes back around. Used to be considered evil and any barrel touching it would melt or blow up. Ain't so. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually that has never been established. When GG said his pal cleaned his 50 with Ammonia it never shoot good after, I scoffed. Cleaning with high Baume Ammonia is typical in the 50 community.
I designed a test to put the Ammonia debate to rest. Running my design by a couple chemists (one a famous Ammoniacal chemist) quickly exposed the inconclusiveness of my test - and every test I've read so far. The truth is no body really knows. Several good metallurgists claim strong Ammonia (22+ degrees Baume) will degrade your barrel. All I can get the chemists to say is [ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> Do the tests </font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless you have information I and these chemists have been unable to find, I'd reserve comments.
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="purple"> Since the posts show a preference to the stronger ammonia cleaner, I am surprised they did not use Barnes CR10. Have not come across a commercial product that cleans more aggressively. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

CR10 may be strong for commercial barrel cleaners, but it's considered horse urine (which contains more ammonia than human urine) compared to Diazo solution.

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="purple">
Personally, I use janitorial grade ammonia. You have to go to a commercial cleaning supply company to buy. This stuff is strong - outside only!!!!!
</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

The Janitorial Ammonia I have is only 10%, weaker than CR10 Ė but you are correct on using in a well ventilated area.

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="purple"> A gallon cost me $20 Cdn and will last several lifetimes. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure itís that high? I pay that much for 26 degree Baume Ammonia ( Ammonia concentration is measured by specific density (degrees Baume). The Janitorial stuff is about $8/gallon. I get used Diazo fluid which my Baume gage reads at 22+ degrees Baume for free. The Printer shops actually want to pay me to take it, but I donít want homeland security alerted Iím making money on chemicals.
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  #5  
Old 09-09-2005, 12:39 AM
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Re: Bore solvents - Interesting thread

OK, here are some myths from http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26177
<ul type="square">[*] <font color="red"> Take a couple of shot glasses and fill them half full with each product.Put an old worn out brush in each glass and let sit overnight.This will take the mystery out of what works and how well it works but will cost you the price of one bottle of each solvent. </font> </font> Bogus! Ammonia needs oxygen to react with Copper. Not a test . <font color="red">[*]Actually Mike and Chris, Montana X-treme is absolutely bore safe (Butches is also). </font> Based on what? Advertising? <font color="red">[*]There is no water in Montana X-treme as there is in every other ammonia based solvent. </font> Now that's a trick that will win someone the noble prize in chemistry [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Unless they have sophisticated equipment to keep it under high pressure at all times, they don't have anhydrous ammonia. Any ammonia not stored under pressure has a hard limit of about 26 degrees Baume - this is known as Aqueous ammonia for obvious reasons (it contains water). 26 degree Baumeí is 29.4% Ammonia (and the rest water). <font color="red">[*]Montana Extreme is amonia oil not aqeous amonia. The developer Dan Huffman told me you could leave Montana extreme plugged up in a barrel for a year and drain it out and there would be no damage. </font>
Triple bogus. Leaving any ammonia sealed will stop the reaction as soon as the oxygen dissolved in the solution is spent(not long if there is much copper). That is the well know bogus test many have conducted - and bogus for several reasons. You need to do an analysis of the spent ammonia to look for iron (and perhaps other elements) to know if it's doing damage.
<font color="red">[*] loses strength when left open in the sun for several hours. </font> Actually that's correct, but they don't mention why. Ammonia boils off (evaporates) very quickly. I poor out just enough to fill my eye dropper. [/list]
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  #6  
Old 09-09-2005, 04:31 PM
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Re: Bore solvents - Interesting thread

b1g b0re,
You keep mentioning degrees Baume. Are you actually referring to Aqueous Ammonium Hydroxide?
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  #7  
Old 09-09-2005, 06:59 PM
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Re: Bore solvents - Interesting thread

Big Bore,

I posted a few comments on BR.com which you have identified as "myths". I feel the need to respond. While you appear to have a good understanding of traditional bore solvents and copper removers, the way that ammonia is carried in those products, and the futility of trying to evaluate bore cleaners with something other than a rifle bore, you apparently don't have any experience with or understanding of Montana X-Treme BMG 50. You assume that the only ammonia in solvents would have to be anhydrous (an impossibility as you point out) or aqua ammonia also known as ammonium hydroxide. This isn't true any longer as is demonstrated by the existance of two Montana X-treme bore cleaners, Original, and BMG 50. I stated on the other board that there is no water in BMG 50. Stricktly speaking that is not true. There is a trace of water in BMG 50 just as there is in gasoline. It is not added but rather shows up because of the inclusion of isopropinol and oleic acid (basicaly beef fat/soap). But that isn't what carries the ammonia-oil is.
Hence the component "ammonia oil". Montana X-treme is unique in this use of this material. Now I don't know if ammonia oil is worthy a "Nobel Chemistry Prize" (is there such a thing?, is bore solvent "in the interest of humanity?) as you have suggested, but I think you might agree that its a pretty clever way to make bore solvent. Nobody else seems to have figured it out. I'm sure that one whiff of BMG 50 would convince you that there is plenty of ammonia in it. In fact, have a couple of friends nearby to catch you if you stick your nose down to the bottle when you do the "aroma test". If you want to satisfy yourself that there is no water in there, just try to get a drop to mix in the bottle (its an oil and water thing).

As far as your questions about BMG 50 being bore safe, there have, of course, many and lengthy tests tests by the manufacturer as well as the experience that the many users of this product have accumulated, including Blake Daniels (four current IBS 1K records), Bill Shehane (ten time record holder and 2004 IBS 1K Champion), Rich De Simone (IBS 1K LR group record) James Phillips (IBS 600 LG score , HG group records) me (IBS 600 LG group, HG score) and Tim North, owner of Broughton Barrels among many others. I know these guys credentials but I don't even know your name. Perhaps we could help persuade you.
If we can't, get the July 05 issue of Field and Stream, page 34 and see what they have to say about it.

As for your "triple bogus" response about pluging barrels, Danny was simply illustrating the fact that there is no hazzard in any method of application for BMG 50. He didn't say seal it up, just plug the barrel so it won't run out. This isn't a trick designed to mislead. Besides, as you know, the ammonia will evaporate away long before a year is up, leaving....OIL! This isn't recommended anyway-BMG works fast. Its just a way of framing the answer-BMG will never hurt a bore. For other products- follow the manufacturers instructions!

Bottom line is this; There is no other product that works as fast or as completely or safer than BMG 50. Try some. If you don't like they will even send your money back and no other solvent offers that either.

Best regards,

Greg Culpepper
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