Hi Pete. I so much want to avoid getting into this discussion but I want to make two points that are often overlooked in this discussion.
The first is in response to:
[ QUOTE ]
the problem is you ain't always presented with a shot that will let you get a match bullet into the vitals.
[/ QUOTE ]
In long range hunting as I understand it, it is the first shot that does the work. it is taken at distances where the animal is unaware of your presence and often times they are hit and don't know what happened so they don't run anywhere. They wander a short distance and lay down to die. This being said the responsible LR hunter makes the first shot count and won't shoot at anything other than a perfect presentation.
The other is in response to:
[ QUOTE ]
does it not still say on a pack of SMK's, that they are not designed for use on game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Neither does it say that they were designed to NOT work on game. Because Sierra only gave consideration to accuracy when designing this bullet does not preclude it from use on game within its construction limits. I would NOT use a fragmenting varmint round on deer because they are designed to NOT work on big game. They have been designed for shallow penetration. I would not choose an AP round for the same reason. It is designed to NOT expand. But to say that an SMK is not designed for game is not the same as saying that they are unuseable on game.
Every bullet has an intended use and that is normally why they were designed in the first place but they almost always fill more than one purpose as well and within this area they are acceptable.
BTW You have shot way way way more animals than I have so I'm hoping you can answer this question for me. Do you bird hunt with a shotgun? Honestly (I have no reason to think you would lie) do you have a 91% kill rate for your total shots fired? If yes then congradulations. You are a man of skill. If no then I would like to know what you told your hunting buddies when you stopped going. They must find you to be a man of stone solid ethics.
With that I will step back to the sidelines and watch unless you have more questions to these points.
GRAVITY. It's not just a good idea. It's the LAW!
You seem to have alot of experience on game. If you havn't lost an animal all year thats great. But I got to Know what are you doing with all the game your pilling up? And can I come hunting with you next season? I promise I'll be good and try not to embarras you in front of your friends. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] O'yea I'll bring the 300 loaded with partitions. In the states I average 5-6 deer a year and 8-10 coyotes. Once in a blue moon I manage to stick an elk with the bow.
Edited: I almost forgot my crowning achievment last year I killed 107 porcipines from 5 to 550yards. If you never tried it don't knock it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
4kedhorn, yes i bird hunt with a shot gun, Its a Fabarm Gamma OU 12/70 with interchangable screw in chokes,i fitted the stock exactly to me and it shoots where i point it. we also hunt ground game like hares and foxes etc on bird drives, i probably have over a 90% hit rate with the shot gun yes,it comes from years of practice, also i check patterns, which is something most folks don't do.
If you are questioning my ability and suggesting i would tell porkie pies, then i can assure you i am a very accumplished shot, I have won championships at clay pigeons, ive shot at every level in the Military from sqaud up to shooting for the British Arms. I was trained on an approved british army unit sniper course.I visit a range as often a as possible. I do lots of dry firing. i have also taken professional shot gun instruction.
I have missed 1 roe deer and 2 pigs all season. Roe was missed due to misjudged range estimation, i shot clean under him, LRF wouldn't work due to fog and i had a borrowed PMII with the Bryant reticle and wasn't sure of the retical graduations. Pig was was 2 nights ago, in the dark i failed to see a strategicaly placed tree stump that the pig wandered behind. 2nd pig was last night, no excuse, i should have hit it and i don't know why i didn't.I tend to hit what i shoot at, if i don't think i can hit it then i don't shoot.
Coyboy, my freezer is full. I hunt a lot on federal land, ive got a fair sized bit rented also, the game 90% of the game i shoot is sold to the game dealer and it ends up in restaurants.
If you are passing through Germany during hunting season( May 1st to 28 feb, i'll take you hunting.
5th edition,Sierra reloading manual on every page where loads are listed using Matchkings:
Sierra does not recommend MatchKing bullets for hunting applications. enough said.
Maybe the law here in Britain where game must be killed with an appropriate bullet is one of the better of our draconion gun laws. If i were to be caught, having shot a deer with a MatchKing (very unlikely, but hey, we do have bad luck) i would lose my firearms licence and have my guns confiscated.
Also any guide worthy of his sort would not allow you to take a shot with such ammunition.
Back to Petes original posting, i am what i would call "walking disabled" and have difficulties getting around, so hunting in most types of terrain is out of the question for me on safety reasons, yet i would never even dream of clicking a mouse and killing an animal. Its obscene! If you want to do that get a PC hunting simulator.
I cant get out there,so my hunting is very limited but at least i can get to the range. This activity must be condemned and not reasoned about.
I didn't want to get into the Matchking debate, it is a dead horse. But...this is LONG RANGE HUNTING.
It is not "Brush hunting inside 100 yards", it is not "Dangerous game hunting". People debate this issue without taking this into account. If all my shots were inside 200 yards then I would use accubond or something similar. At 400, 500, 600 yards or more accuracy is paramount. 2 or 3 moa accuracy won't cut it. That is inhumane! Nobody is saying to use matchkings in their 30-30 lever action for deer at 50 yards. Put it in perspective fellas, at long range (the basis of this forum) the matchking will work fine!
[ QUOTE ]
If you are questioning my ability and suggesting i would tell porkie pies, then i can assure you i am a very accumplished shot,
[/ QUOTE ]
I would not assume anything else but what you claim. We are all gentlemen here.
What I was questioning was your consistancy. I personaly don't know any bird hunter that can claim a 90% rate of success on live birds. You even said that you high degree of skill comes from years of practice. You also said that you wouldnt take the chance using equipment that yeilded even a 10% chance of failure. So how exactly did you start out your bird hunting with this ethic? How did you maintain this standard all those years of practice?
My point is that I find it interesting for people arguing about how perfect my equipment and ethics should be ALWAYS set the ethics and perfection bar just below what they themselves can claim at this present moment but never think back to the screwups they have had.
Maybe some day I will be as accomplished a hunter as you and I will get to shoot a hog in the face as it runs on by. Untill then I will shoot 1 deer a year if I'm lucky and a handfull of rockchucks everyonce in a while but maintain my 100% shot to kill ratio. Now there I go setting an artificial ethic and perfection bar. If you only knew what a crappy shotgunner I was you would laugh. But hey, Practice makes perfect. Right?
GRAVITY. It's not just a good idea. It's the LAW!
Centre Punch, thankyou for confirming what i wrote, i wouldn't have wrote what sierra wrote if i hand't read it my self, Are you also an ex squaddie, walking wounded like me?
Jon M, there are enough accurate hunting bullets around these days that there is no justification for using a match bullet. My 30-06 will put hornady BTSP interbonds in under 2" groups at 525m if i do my part. The Balistic Tip bullets are superbly accurate, as are the SST's and a few others.
4kedhorn, you are comparing apples with oranges. to compare shot gun hunting with rifle hunting is absurd.
I can't claim to have averaged over 90% hits through my entire hunting life with a shot gun. But i started with a 4-10, my Dad gave me 2 cartridges and i either came home with 1 rabbit and 12 spare shell, or i came home with 2 rabbits, i was in the [censored] if i wasted ammunition by missing, I was taught to shoot well before ever bieng allowed to shoot at live game, shot disiplin came from Dads experiences in the use of single rounds for surgical strikes.
As hunters we are obliged to do all we can to improve our skill and chose equipment that will enable us to have the best possible chance of cleanly dispatching any game we hunt. That includes using the correct bullet for the correct job. When it come to shot guns, gun fit, patterning the gun with the ammo and chosing a good combination, regular practice and learning when not to shoot is about all you can do.
I'm lucky in that i have an absolutely super dog, she springs game so well that many of my shots are easy, i don't take any marginal shots, i don't care if i dont get a shot all day, just to watch the dog work and to be out side is reward enough. same goes when i'm stalking deer, i know i am capable of shooting deer at extreem range, but i only do so as a last resort, if i can get closer, i do, i enjoy the thrill of the stalk, the challenge, the out doors.
I just get the impression that some of the guys on here at times loose sight of what is important in hunting.
and going back to doing it from the living room with the click of a mouse,, thats just sick,