Long Range Hunting Online Magazine

Go Back   Long Range Hunting Online Magazine > Chatting and General Stuff > General Discussion

General Discussion Must wear red or OD green socks to participate. I can't see your socks, please be honest.

The thread is closed

What a joke....

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 10-01-2007, 04:53 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,651

I do understand the higher BC bullets are a better choice for long range shooting. I will not dispute that at all.

I guess the main point I and others left out was location. Your right, in Montana, there is more wind and this type of bullet would not be best suited for that type of shooting. However, where I live, we do not get to much wind. We need a flatter shooting bullet, that will disintegrate on impact and not continue to travel once it hits the target, due to location.

I know all about high BC bullets, I have used them on numerous occations.
However, here is my problem with them. I have shot many a coyotes at ranges from 500 to 800 yards. The problem I have been having, the bullet punches a small hole through them, and they continue to run. At that time, I was using a 6x284 with a 107grn SMK. I decided to try the 87grn V-max instead. I knew I would be giving up ballistics for killing power. Once I switched to this bullet, I noticed a treamondous difference in kill power. I will admit, I never shot this bullet past 1000 yards at coyotes, so I can't tell you how it perfromed on yotes.

Were I shoot, the wind stays pretty calm, so a high BC bullet is not necessary. I wanted something that would shoot super flat out to around 800 yards and this seems to be the ticket. Also, from all the information I have received from the guys who own the 300 WSM Varminter, they are saying it is one of the flatest shooting rifles they have owend and is perfect for varminting out to 1000 yards in good conditions.

When the wind gets real bad, I will be the first to admit, I will shoot the higher BC bullet. I am going to have a 7mm built, based of the 338 Lapua Improved case soon just for this purpouse. I wanted the 300 WSM Varminter for shots out to really around 800 yards.

Also, I do understand that people were only giving me suggestions on the build. I guess I should have said the rifle was being built for a certain purpose, for a certain range, and conditions at the location were I shoot. Maybe, that would have let othes known what I was trying to accomplish with the projet. I decided to have the 300 WSM Varminter built. It will be perfect for it's purpose. I will post the results as soon a I start shooting her.

I think we all got a little worked up, it happens. I guess it just looked like people were putting Richards 300 WSM down, and I thought it was wrong. I just think it's wrong to criticize somene when they can not defend themselves.

Anyhow, I know your post was not for me, however, I did want to say I do agree with you on ballistcs for long range shooting when it comes to unknown conditions at longer ranges.


Unread 10-01-2007, 08:47 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wilmington NC
Posts: 4,691

Last edited by BountyHunter; 10-07-2007 at 07:13 PM.
Unread 10-01-2007, 09:58 PM
Official LRH Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841

Alright, lets compare apples to apples, the 300 WSM against the 300 WSM.

If you can get 4000 fps with a 125 gr BT, you could easily get 3000 fps with a 208 gr A-max.

Compare these two for wind drift at 1000 yards:

125 gr BT @4000 fps................84"
208 gr A-Max @ 2900 fps..........62"

How is the light bullet better even in the same chambering compared to the heavier bullets?????

Thats over 25% less wind drift out of the same chambering just going with a heavier, higher BC bullet.

Even more interesting, lets look at retained velocity. The BT has just over 1500 fps, the A-Max has just over 100 fps more retained FPS. What does this mean, since the A-Max as a thinner jacket then the 125 gr Ballistic Tip, AND IT DOES, I have crossectioned both of them, and both are tipped bullets, the A-Max will offer more dramatic expansion given a higher retained velocity and dramatically higher retained energy.

Even by your own words, the 300 WSM is better with a high BC bullet, that is why I believe you shoot the 210 gr in yours.

You say I am the one being hard headed, hell, you tell us what you use, which agrees 100% with my way of thinking and then argue the point dead against what you personally use??????

The comment about terminal performance is moot, the 208 will expand easier then the BT espeically with higher retained velocity and energy.

I press my point because any combo you want to look at a high BC bullet will kick a short light, low BC bullet. Now that you have brought barrel life into the equation, interested in seeing how you can say my example with the 300 WSM and the 208 gr A-Max is not a better choice all around at long range.

-At least as good barrel life
-Better ballistic performance
-Better terminal performance

Please tell me I am wrong again and how????

Hell, I can take a 280 Rem, load it with the 200 gr ULD RBBT in a fast twist barrel to a VERY mild 2700 fps and still have 45" of wind drift at 1000 yards compared to nearly twice that for this 300 WSM example ran to the nuts just to get 4000 fps.

Tell me again, WHY????

THe 280 would have at least as good of a barrel life, pressures are DRAMATICALLY lower then the 300 WSM load, half the drift.

Your point does not hold water.

Can this combo be effective at 1000 yards, you bet, are there better choices if you want to excell at extreme range, there are so many to pick from its hard not to fall over something that would perform better at 1000 yards then the 125 gr BT in the 300 WSM, even at 4000 fps.

Even most loads in the 300 WSM with any bullet heavier then the 125 gr BT will outperform it.

All I was trying to do was get a new to long range shooter the best shot he could at a rifle load combo that would get him what he wanted the first time out.

Obviously, there is no talking reason with either of you, even when the numbers are right in front of you.

This is really getting tiresome.

Get the 300 WSM for crying out loud but do us all a favor, get a 1-10 twist barrel so that when you figure out any bullet with a higher BC then the 125 gr BT will outperformance it at long range, at least you have the option to use the correct bullet.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Unread 10-01-2007, 10:41 PM
Gold Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: FREE RUN, MS
Posts: 774
Just as it turns back to a debate the BS(bh) returns!

my brass $1.00 each....Nolser.... maybe not the best but the most expensive you can get for my AM.

bullets $.044 each the expensive ones Wildcat's from Richard

The AM magnums in my opinion some of the best out there! As far as us AM shooters needing help I think we do a pretty damn good job at it on our own...Maybe you should read the 23 page post where we talk about AM's amoung ourselves...might be some humor in there but we all give and take advise and experience from each other and not start a thread with... "Im here to disagree just because I want to"......children do that not men!

Barrel burners? hhmm I can burn the barrel out of anything....who cares? I re-ring my race motor every year if it needs it or not....its just money!

WSM's shooting piss ant bullets equals wanna be long range magnums!

ES/SD piss ant bullets give piss ant numbers!

Those high BC makes perfect sense in a 1K big game rifle you said it yourself!

Vatmits is Varmits some are just alot bigger and taste better!

And there is only one shot that counts and thats the first one placed where you intended it!

NOW THAT I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION HOW ABOUT SOME MORE DEBATE AND STOP THE PISSIN CONTEST! I dont have to choose a side here, but I would like you to show...make that prove your point that a fast lil bullet beats a magnum......make me a belivier...or so me some proof!

And I apollagize to all....even you BH!
Unread 10-01-2007, 10:47 PM
Official LRH Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841

Please read my post to BH concerning the 300 WSM loaded with the new 208 gr A-Max.

Much lower muzzle velocity, BUT, much less wind drift, more retained velocity at 1000 yards, dramatically more energy and a tipped bullet with a thinner jacket then the 125 gr BT so it will expand more violently then the BT will at long range since you want to hammer those dogs hard.

Now thats comparing a 300 WSM to a 300 WSM but only changing the bullet.

You can certainly do what you want but I would still recommend you order that rifle from Richard with a 1-10 twist. If you can get 4000 fps in a 1-15, you will get well over 3900 fps with the same pressures in a 1-10 with the same bullet.

Then if you want to, you can try the 208 gr A-max to compare at long range. I will not predict which would perform better, even though I am pretty sure I already know. Anyway, look over the numbers, I am not just pounding on the high BC bullets because I THINK they work better, they simply do, its been proven time and again.

Any bullet in the 300 WSM with a BC higher then the 125 gr BT will out perform it at 1000 yards no matter that the velocity is a bit lower.

Just run some numbers and see for your self, I am not making this up.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Unread 10-01-2007, 11:01 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,651
Bountyhunter, you made some excellent points.

My big issue with this hole post was that Richard could not defend himself from those who were critisizing him, and that's not fair in my book.

I am sure if Richard could defend himself on this topic, he would make some of these guys look like amatures. Richard is a professional gunsmith and the man has been building proven championship rifles and stocks for many years.

I talked to another fellow, who lives here in California, who just received his Richard Franklin built 300 WSM Tight Neck Varminter. He also told me he has had excellent results with this rifle for it's intended purpose, killing varmnts out to 1000 yards.

He also stated his rifle is showing no signs of unsafe pressures. He also stated the accuracy and kill power is awesome out to 1000 yards. He said his current load is producing a velocity of 4065fps, and his come up at 1000 yards is 18+ MOA.

He told me he shot a fox at 590 yards. He said the fox flew up and did two flips before landing on the ground, opened him up from his chest to his ass, and broke the fox's left back leg. This is what you want in a varmint rifle. A VLD type bullet will not give you that type of performance or show at that range. He also stated, while during a groundhog hunt, the wind was very high. He said the 125grn BT performed extreamly well in the wind.

I have now talked to 6 people who own the 300 WSM Vaminter. No!!! none of them are Richards friends, ect. The proof is continuing to show the 300 WSM is performing very well. Here is list of what I have learned so far;

1. No sticky bolts, ie high pressure issues.

2. No loose primer pockets.

3. Excellent brass life.

4. Excellent velocity between 4000fps to 4065fps with the 125grn BT and 4100fps to 4150fps with 110 V-Max.

5. Benchrest accuracy.

6. Excellent kill power.

7. Excellent ballistics out to 1000 yards with the 125grn BT.

The same six individuals have reported the best accuracy with the 125grn BT. They said the 110grn V-max is working well too, however, the 125grn BT is perfoming the best in windy conditions at longer ranges.

Richard, also indicated the 1-15 twist Bartlien Barrel is ONE of the reasons the 300 WSM has been working so well.

The VV-N550 is the recommended powder for the 300 WSM. All the guys, I have spoken with, have all said it works very well with this combo. This powder gives a 150fps to 200fps velocity advantage over the same types of powders and produces less pressure while doing it.

Richards 300 WSM Varminter is obviously a very popular and succesful long range varmint set up. He developed something, that is not popular on this board, very interesting for varmint hunters and has had MUCH success doing it. I look forward to posting the results, I am sure it will be very impressive.

Unread 10-01-2007, 11:04 PM
Official LRH Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841

Now I need to take issue with you on your comments about the cost of my AMs.

Not even the huge 338 AM is as costly in componant costs as you lead on that it is. Not sure where your getting your information but you are flat out wrong.

In the case of the 7mm AM. the 200 gr ULD RBBT are running around $55 per 100 bullets. Thats 55 cents each including shipping costs so your flat out wrong on that one.

Case price, $4.50 each, where in the hell do you get this from???

Even the 408 CT case can be had for just over $3 per case including shipping.

The last order of 338 Lapua brass I put in was running $1.95 each including shipping. Again, your flat out wrong.

With the barrels I am using, barrel life of my 7mm AM is nearly identical to any other large capacity 7mm or 30 cal magnum. again, you are totally uneducated about my allen magnums so please do not offer your conjered opinion on them to the public because you are wrong.

The pressure issues mainly came from varing lots of powders. Many lots of WC-872 vary in burn rate but recently the new US869 was the real problem as its burn rate is advertised as near H-870 but in fact it can be as fast burning as retumbo. Once my customers realized this, they adjusted their powder charges to bring velocities back to where I recommended, again velocity is a function of pressure and time, just like in the 300 WSM.

There has never been a case that I have not personally instructed my customers that if they are seeing any heavy bolt lift in any way that they should stay with that load. Simply is untrue and every customer I have that has asked me about is have all adjusted their loads accordingly.

What you probably read was most of my customers loading up their rifles until they just started noticing the bolt lift getting sticky and then reducing the powder charges so that this was not the case.

Please offer these posts you refer to as it sounds like there are alot of them. I would like you to offer them speicifically to me so I can review them and if I have not contacted my customers I would like to do so and say their loads are to hot but again, I am sure that has already been done.

I have said from DAY ONE, that the Allen Magnums are extreme performance big game hunting rounds, nothing more, nothing less. And those that want to use them for high volume shooting will not have barrels that last long.

That said, for those that use them accordingly as I instruct them to do, as big game rifles will have a lifetime of extreme performance even for the serious big game hunter.

That has been my stand from day one so please do not try to say I am saying anything else right now, I was simply making a fact about the anemic performance of your example at extreme range.

Again, now that we have that settled, please tell me how the 208 gr A-max in the 300 WSM does not kick the hell out of the 125 gr BT at 1000 yards in every catagory that means anything to hitting a small target at long range in unknown down range conditions and how would it not offer superior terminal performane with its higher retained velocity, more dramatic expansion and higher energy payload????????? Plus at least as good of a barrel life....

YOu want apples to apples, there you go, well I guess not, because there is no comparision between the 125 BT and the 208 A-Max at long range in the 300 WSM........

Do and believe what you boys want, in the real world, there are dramatically better choices then what your trying to prove to us.

again, look foward to how you will spin this comparision to try to say I am up in the night on this one as well? Fun debate however...

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
The thread is closed


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads for: What a joke....
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Blond Joke sullijr Humor 2 10-11-2013 12:14 PM
this form is a joke 7mm mag sendero Long Range Hunting & Shooting 41 01-23-2011 08:12 PM
Milk joke theodore Humor 7 09-11-2009 08:49 PM
Don't joke around at the Post Office !! James Jones General Discussion 13 12-03-2008 09:03 PM
Okay, Joke Time! Yogi General Discussion 0 11-16-2004 05:40 PM

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:56 PM.

Powered by vBulletin ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Management Powered by vBadvanced CMPS
All content ©2010-2015 Long Range Hunting, LLC