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What a joke....

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Unread 09-29-2007, 02:02 PM
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Last edited by BountyHunter; 10-07-2007 at 07:05 PM.

Unread 09-29-2007, 02:48 PM
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Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression was that the "what a joke" refered to the reference to 0.162" at 100 yards = 1.62" at 1000 yards?
Unread 09-29-2007, 04:34 PM
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Your comments about jacketed bullets and RPMs does have some trueth but not concerning the 125 gr Ballistic Tip or any other BT made.

The Ballistic Tips have an extremely heavy jacket, even the varmint versions.

I have tried to dust many BTs and have yet to be able to do it and I have pushed them as hard as anyone out there.

I have driven the 50 gr Ballistic tip to 4310 fps in one of my 22-6mm AI rifles. Accuracy was 0.322" ctc for five three shot groups. The twist in that barrel was a 1-8 3 groove, which is known to be hard on bullets.

I have also shot the 100 gr 25 cal BT to 4100 to 4150 fps in several of my 257 Allen Magnums with 30" barrels. The twists in those barrels were 1-7 3 grooves and a 1-8 5 groove. Accuracy at 100 yards was well under 1/2 moa in all three test rifles.

I have also loaded the 120 gr BT to 3950 fps in my 7mm AM with a 30" barrel with a 1-7 3 groove barrel. Again, 100 yard accuracy average was slightly under 1/2 moa.

So why not use these loads at long range???? Velocity spread was no where near as tight as what I was able to get with the heavier bullets. The loads that did offer good ES still would not compete accuracy wise at 500 yards. They were still shooting 1/2 moa in all mentioned cases at 500 yards but the heavier bullets all averaged from 1/3 to 1/5 moa.

Your comment about this being a varmint load and it should not be compared to big game loads. That is not a real valid point. The reason, in a 30 cal bore, any solid hit on a varmint size animal will easily ancher it instantly. If we were talking about smaller caliber varmint rounds you would have a real point but not when talking about a bullet that is already 30 cal and targeting thin skinned, lightweight varmint critters. Any solid hit will end the fight instantly.

The reason I bring this point up, hitting that small target is the critical thing and the heavier, higher BC bullets will make that easiler.

They will also allow this without having to drive a light bullet to redline or more to get these results.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Unread 09-29-2007, 04:37 PM
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Last edited by BountyHunter; 10-07-2007 at 07:07 PM.
Unread 09-29-2007, 05:17 PM
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I am sorry but I do not see where you are calling me out.''

Basic firearm safety, know your target and know what is behind your target. if there is not a save back stop, YOU DO NOT SHOOT!!!!!

There is no comment about "if your using a big bullet, you have to be more careful"

Your comment is simply rediculous that I am promoting unsafe conditions because of the bullets my rifles shoot. It almost hard to have this discussion and keep it on a respectable level because your comments and arguements are nothing short of laughable to behonest.

EVERY rifle made by me for my Allen Magnums are designed specifically to be used with the load data I offer and are perfectly safe used in that way. Controling what the customer points the rifle as is hardly in my control.

Every rifle is proven safe with these DANGEROUS BULLETS you refer to.

You honestly think a varmint is going to stop a 125 gr BT at its terminal velocity at 1000 yards. PLEASE.

Again, your arguement is simply laughable and not worth even defending against.

If that is your idea of calling me out, your on pretty weak ground. Firearm safety lies in the shooter of the rifle and thats where the buck stops, certainly you understand this, if not, well..........

Again, calling my rifles unsafe in anyway is again an insult to me by you. More then anything, its a totally uneducated comment on your part.

Again, my only comment concerning this topic from the start is that it is not responsible to say that the 300 WSM is a 4000 fps level round when that is certainly not a safe level to be loading it to in a factory rifle and many out there will read this and read what they want to read and try to see how hard they can push their rifles, even if they can not get 4000 fps they will try to get as much as they can and that is not safe.

If you can not at least agree to this potential danger and its existance, then yourso closed off to open debate that this has gone far past its useful range if discussion.

At least BD is bringing solid practical points to this debate and several very good points, they are still debateable but both sides have merit.

Your comments are simply not worth discussing.

My comments yourefer to about courage in no way said you did not have courage. It said you should have the courage to do what you want, report the results and you will get respect. That was a general comment in the way I live my life. If you think it will work for you, good, if not so be it.

Again, next time you refer to my products to my customers as unsafe you had better have some solid data to offer because in this world, saying that is about as close to slander as you can get.

Before you say its no different then what I am saying about this issue, BULL, no expert in the world would say its common for a 300 WSM to be able to produce 4000 fps with a 125 gr bullet. And with the fact that there are so many factory rifles out there in this same chambering that could chamber and shoot these same loads, it is not a wise thing to do, again in my opinion.

This is getting tiresome.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Unread 09-29-2007, 06:07 PM
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Wildcat posted

Originally Posted by wildcat
It has been proven his set up is shooting the 125grn BT at 4000fps and very very accurate out to 1000 yards.


And I asked

Can you post the proof?

Asking to see the proof is not calling any body a liar and for you to claim as much shows your lack of reasoning ability...

[Quote] by Bounty Hunter
"The Barnes TSX is a copper solid and won't blow up. So that really makes a valid comparison, NOT!" [quote]

At no time did I mention any thing about a Barnes bullet in this thread..That is your LIE.....

The 62 to 65 thousand PSi that I mentioned is the average and Max SAAMI pressure for the 300 WSM as I understand it if I am wrong then SHOW ME..

Again IMHO 4000FPS with the 300 WSM is not possible with the SAAMI pressure if I AM WRONG show me.....

Since the promoter of the round did not publish pressure data that I am aware of this is MY OPION right or wrong until proven wrong..

All that you have done is write confrontational post along with character Assassination with out posting any proof only YOUR OPION and MY OPION is just that take or leave it I REALLY DO NOT CARE WHAT THE HELL YOU THINK one way or the other............
range it,check the wind, dial in correction, aim and only one shot
Unread 09-29-2007, 10:10 PM
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Before I go on with this post, I am going to say this, Kirby is a a very professional gunsmith, and I know he would never promote anything unsafe.

However, I am not going to say I am wrong on this issue. I will continue to debate as best I can. Trust me, I know others are better at it than I.

Here we go,

Fifty, I never put you down or said you were promoting anything unsafe.
I know you would never do that. However, you must agree there are idiots out there that might use that rifle in the wrong conditions, right. Your not going to know what someone is doing with one of your rifles when it leaves your shop.

My arguement does have some merit wether you like it or not. I wll agree with you, It might not be the best argument. I am not a professional rifle smith or ballistics expert. My BA and Masters degree is in something else. So , I guess I am not on the same playing feild when it comes to knowledge about ballistics, ect. I know enough to shoot very well.

You said what Richard was doing was promoting something unsafe to the public, can you show me and others the proof. It looks like BH has already proven you and others wrong about the pressure and velocity issue.

Every rifle Richard designs or promotes is promoted in the right way, and if used the way Richard suggests, then he is promoting a safe product too.

Also, if your going to tell people on this board that Richard is promoting something unsafe, then you better have proof too! So, as you say, I am slandering you, than aren't you doing the same thing to Richard.

Regarding the courage comment, Ok maybe I got a little too worked up about it. However, it seemed to me as though you were calling me out. Anyhow, thats cool, no big deal.

As I mentioned, I am out of my league when it comes to this type of stuff. However, it seems like BH has much info on this matter and has continued to back his statments up much better than I. Why don't you debate him on this, I would love to see how it developes.

Once again, I never said you were intentionally promoting unsafe products to your customers. I will apoplogize If it looked that way. I, in NO WAY was suggesting that. However, admit that you were wrong in saying that Richard Franklin was promoting an unsafe product when you don't have the proof to back up your claims.

Once again Kirby, I apologize if it looked like I was saying you were promoting an unsafe product, I know you are a professional. I was trying to defend Richard, because he was being slandered IMO, and he couldn't defend himself on this site.

Your right about idiots trying to shoot the 300 WSM at high velocities with the wrong components, I can see where that is unsafe. However, Richard promotes his 300 WSM Varminter correctly. He clearly states, in order for you to get the performance he is suggesting, you must use the proper Action, barrel twist rate, brass, powder, ect. He also states, his 300 WSM Varminter will not perform the same with a Remington 700 action, ect.

Kirby, really, I am sorry if it looked like I was saying you promoted an unsafe product. I should have used a better analogy to proof my point.

However, I would hope you would apopligize to Richard for your comments regarding him promoting an unsafe product.

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