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What a joke....

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Unread 09-28-2007, 05:01 PM
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I never said a high BC bullet will shoot "BETTER" at long range then a low BC bullet. What I Said was that in unknown down range shooting conditions, making consistant hits on small targets will be easier with the high BC bullet. Has nothing to do with a bullets accuracy potential to be honest.

I stand by my statements then and now, there is no way a 300 WSM will produce 4000 fps velocity with a 125 gr bullet without breaking 70,000 psi in the process which I feel is not acceptable with that case design and certainly not responsible to recommend when there are so many uneducated shooters using this chambering in factory rifles that probably should not even be loaded over 60,000 psi. That is what I said then and that is what I said now, nothing has changed.

As far as my wildcat rounds, The ones based on the RUM case are loaded to a point that is probably around the 65,000 psi level. I know this because tests have been done and shown that the Rem RUM case will handle 65,000 psi and offer 4 to 5 firings at this level before primer pockets loosen to the point they should not be reused for gas leakage concerns.

My wildcats based on the LAPUA case are designed to be used with the Lapua brand 338 Lapua case, not the soft Norma case which is very similiar to the Rem RUM case in pressures. That said, I developed my load data using both brass to give me a base line on pressure. My standard loads for my 7mm AM, 300 AX and 338 AX will result in Norma cases lasting 4 to 5 firings per case, just as my RUM based wildcats.

I recommend using Lapua cases because this is not even a slight work out for this case which is dramatically stronger then any case out there and makes the WSM case look like a tin pop can in comparision when talking about quality and case head strength.

My wildcat loadings are right where they should be for the appropriate parent case they are based on so do not tell me that I boost my chamber pressure on my wildcats to the same level as this example because that is a totally uneducated comment on your part and simply untrue.

I can post that my 270 AM will drive a 169.5 gr ULD RBBT to 3400 fps and that my 7mm AM will drive a 200 gr ULD RBBT to 3300 fps both in 30" barrels and never get any question to this in any way. WHY? Because that is realistic velocity performance for each of these parent cases.

With this example, 4000 fps with a 125 gr bullet is not in the realistic velocity range of the WSM case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I see no hypocrisy at all here. Please clear it up for me.............

As far as the "Chamber" that has been designed, what exactly is a new design about it. He drew up a tight chamber for a 300 WSM, put it in a 1-15 twist barrel and pours the powder in until he hit 4000 fps, this is not exactly a new cartridge design as you speak of. Its what every custom rifle builder does when they draw up a reamer for a factory chambering, nothing more, nothing less, no magic here to be seen from what I can tell.

Its funny that if there are so many others using this special chambering(300 WSM????) that you would hear more about it. THe only time I have heard any reports on it were from this one person. That would be like hearing the only information about the Allen Magnums from me, but instead you can hear from dozens of shooters on here alone that will tell you about more performance then I report on out of my own rifles and wildcats.

My comments toward you were not ment to offend and were not ment with aggression, but your reply certainly was not offered in the same tone. First off all, rifle building technology even 15 years ago is so outdated by todays standards that it hard is worth comparing someone that has was building rifles 35 years ago to the rifle building practices being used now.

You make a dramatic point that he builds rifles for 1000 yard BR shooters. Well I build rifles for extreme range varmint and big game hunters where in many cases 1000 yards is relatively short range and these rifles are used in conditions that make the 1000 yard BR course look like day wrapped up in a warm fuzzy blanket!!!

I have no doubt the man can build an accurate rifle. As mentioned before, I have no problem with his claims, MY PROBLEM IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SOME UNEDUCATED PERSON WITH A FACTORY 300 WSM READS THESE VELOCITY REPORTS BUT FORGETS TO READ THAT ITS FOR ONLY CUSTOM RIFLES..................

I guess I look at things much different then you, I have to because its my ass if something happens to my customers or to anyone that reads my reports on the wildcats I design. You have to take responsibility for what you put in words and think about what MAY happen with that information even though you did not intend for it to be taken or used in the way it was.

If you see me as a hypocrit then thats your right but everyone that knows me in person and on this site know that is hardly the case.

I have no doubt your rifle will shoot and I would be surpised if you do not get 4000 fps, it will be that or die trying from what I have taken from your last comments as you seem a bit hell bent to prove this as fact.

My comment to you is simple, if every rifle out there chambered for this round can not safely use these recommended loads, it is not responsible in my opinion to promote such load data.

Since it seems you feel the need to insult my experience in rifle building when I guess we know where we stand with each other. My dealing with you in the past I felt were nothing but professional and in some cases far more professional then I would have ever needed to be. In fact I took it pretty hard on the chin in one instance for you but it appears that warrents no real respect in how I dealt with you in the past.

Suprises me a bit to be honest but like you said, I do not know you and you do not know me...............

Enough said, will be interested to hear your results when you get the rifle, I am sure you will have a great shooting rifle, I hope you go with a slower twist barrel though so your not wedded to those stubs. Sometime down the road, you may realize that those of us that offered our opinion were not HATERS, we were just trying to save you some wasted time and money.

Good Shooting,

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:

Unread 09-28-2007, 06:23 PM
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Fifty, I am not questioning your rifle building ability. You know your stuff. I know you are a professional, and I trust your knowledge about shooting ect.

You too have pushed the envelope with chamberings, some with success and some not, you said it yourself. What I was trying to point out is, the 300 WSM, with the right components, will shoot the 125grn bullet at 4000fps.

Also, this type of chambeing and bullet combination is ment for use out to 1000 yards. If were going to shoot past that, I would definently go with a chambering like one of your wildcats and bullet combinations.

My post was not ment to hurt your feelings or question your professionalism. However, I do think there is some hypocrisy when it comes to some of your comments about saftey and pushing the limit.

Your camberings are ment to push big bullets at high velocities. The bullets you recommend and promote are made to stay togather and not come apart. I know you know what your doing, but do all of customers who use your chamberings and use your suggested bullets know what their doing.

What about the guy that buys your 338 AM and doesn't understand how far this bullet can go, doesn't understand that it will past through steel and keep going. That too can be very unsafe, right.

I am sure most of your customeres know what their doing, but I am sure there are some that don't. You are suggesting that Richards design is unsafe do to pressure issues. Well, I guess I could say your design is unsafe do to the type of bullets your promting to use for varmint hunting at long range.

I am sure Richard knew what he was doing when he designed his chambering and bullet combo. He also knew the pressures would be pushing the limits a little, but not enough to cause concern or safety issues.

Also, you mentioned rifle building has changed in the last 15 years, I think like you, Richard has kept up with the tehnology and ballistics info.

Fifty, I don't want to get into a ******* match. However, when you speak of safety concerns, I think you set yourself up for a debate on that issue. Please, don't get upset because I question your methods, I mean, isn't that what your doing about Richards.

So far, there have been no presure issues with the 300 WSM Varminter as from what I have been told buy those who own one. As soon as I receive mine, I will tell you what I think about pressure issues, case life, velocity, and accuracy, and I will be honest. If it it does not work, I will let you know personally. I should receive the rifle buy March or April. I will keep in touch with you on this debate.

The bottom line, if were not pushing it a little, then where is the fun in this sport.

Fifty, once again, I know your a professional, but please show the same respect to those gun builders who have come before you and know what their doing.

Fifty, I do respect you. I have stated on many occasions that you are great person to work with. I have told many individuals about your designs, and I know some of the people you built rifles for, I referred them to you. I will continue doing so. One of these days I would like you to build a 7mmAM or a 338 AM. I am waiting until I will have the chance to shoot past the 1000 yard mark. That day is coming soon.

I think we are debating about something that is good, and I think it's good for others to see and learn.

I think the problem with the debate is, some forgot the intended purpose of this cartridge bullet combo. It was designed to be used for varmints out to 1000 yards and thats it.

I think that's why some tried to argue their point, they forget the intended purpose of the project and think the user and builder are suggesting this thing can be shot out to 1500, 2000, 2500 yards with light bullets, ect. As you stated, a 1000 yards is a chip shot for some of us with the rifle and optics we use, and BC at that range is not as sugnifigant compared to the longer ranges which I stated above.

Also, the only person I thought who should apologize was the one who posted "What a Joke" that is who I have an issue with, not you.

However, like you, I am not afraid to debate you or call you out on your comments, so please, don't get upset. Remember, you questioned my courage, and I didn't like that considering what I do for a living everday.

I have never questoned your integrity or courage, and I never would. I don't know you, so please don't make comments like "have some courage and do what you want instead of following others suggestions". Maybe I interpreted your comments the wrong way, if I did, I apologize for making a deal out of it. If I offended you, I am sorry, thats not what I was trying to. I was trying to point out my point of view on the topic, comments, ect.

Anyhow, great debate.

Unread 09-28-2007, 06:27 PM
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Bounty Hunter, if his loads are within SANE presure,then why is the top speed for a M-700 Action less than for a stronger custom action...Since he is making the claims I believe that the burden of proof that the loads are in the 62 to 65 thousand PSI level are up the person making the claim...If someone tells you that you can get away not paying taxes shouldn't he prove to you that this info is correct instead of you having to prove him wrong....You certainly look at the situation differently that I ... Besides that he is selling if he wants me to buy then the burden of proof is defenately on his shoulders
range it,check the wind, dial in correction, aim and only one shot
Unread 09-28-2007, 06:29 PM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Spokane Wa
Posts: 153
I dont post much but lurk here daily. I had the chance to meet Kirby about a month ago and a better man you will not find!! He has put up with me asking questions and changing my mind over and over. I respect his opinions and ideas on cartridge design and performance. In fact that is why I am having him build me a 375AM when Richard gets the bullets up and running. I have the parts on order because I believe in Kirby and his knowledge as well as his ability to make a masterpiece of a rifle.

I have been in the long range game for several years and know that a light bullet wont get it done at 1000 yards. Ok maybe on a rabbit or a squirrel. I have a 300wsm and I can tell you that even with Norma brass a 26" barrel and a very hard load (73.4gr H-4350) gets me 3615fps and that my primer pockets are getting loose after 2-3 firings. Kirby is tring to make sure that some new or inexpienced reloader doesnt blow his head off. You may reach that but you better try it during a very warm day or you might expierance the same problem. That is the problem with pushing the envelope, if you mess up even a little the results can be disasterous. Build what you want, but beware the price you might pay.

" I do not leave a long range shot opportunity to "adequate". In my opinion, as stated before, overkill is a mythical place, no such thing if you can pilot the power with precision." Kirby Allen
Unread 09-28-2007, 08:54 PM
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Location: Nebraska
Posts: 507
Originally Posted by BountyHunter View Post
Another point, why in the world would I want to use a 200-240 gr bullet on a ground hog in populated areas that will richocet, when I can super velocity a smaller highly explosive bullet that will fragment if I miss.
That is an excellent point and one I am sure many people do not think about and is one of the reasons I use light frangible bullets when coyote hunting.

I am curious why you are planning on using the softer Norma brass. Is it because of the consistant neck thickness so you can use minimal neck clearance without turning necks?
Unread 09-28-2007, 09:27 PM
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Last edited by BountyHunter; 10-07-2007 at 07:01 PM.
Unread 09-28-2007, 09:50 PM
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Talk about making things up,I haven't called anybody a liar first off. If you think it's Sane pressure go right ahead... He States that that the M-700 is not capable of 4000 FPS a Strenght factor perhaps? So do you actualy think that the loads would be less for a M-700 action if pressures were in the 62 t0 65 thousand PSI range....You are a little aggressive don't you think???

[Quote] From The Article

"Richard explains: “The 300 Varminter is built around the 300 WSM case. In good custom actions such as the BAT or Nesika this round will deliver 4000+ FPS with the 125gr Nosler Ballistic tips and a bit more with the 110gr Hornady V-Max. Remington-action rifles will handle velocities up to around 3800 to 3900 FPS with these bullets. We use Norma brass in a tight-neck chamber with zero freebore and slow-twist 30″ barrels to obtain these velocities. Accuracy is excellent with either of these bullets. If you want air time and red mist on large varmints then this is the caliber for you.”

Of course correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall any presure data in the article....
I once saw a guy get 2900 FPS with a 250 grain Partion out of a 338 Win ,I don't think that was within accptable preure levels of not over 65K..The primer fell right out of the case....There are a lot of people runing excessively high presure that doesn't it a good practice
range it,check the wind, dial in correction, aim and only one shot

Last edited by jwp475; 09-28-2007 at 10:02 PM.
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