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What a joke....

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Unread 09-28-2007, 11:32 AM
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When you brought up this topic I believe you were talking about building a long range varmint rifle, am I correct???

The recommendations you received were far and away telling you that if you are going to be shooting at various ranges in unknow down range conditions(IE NO RANGE WIND FLAGS), a higher BC bullet will greatly improve your odds of hitting small targets efficently.

That is the flat out trueth, if your dazzled by 4000 fps velocity and claims of 1/5 moa accuracy at 1000 yards, by all means build the rifle and report back to us how it performs at 1000 yards.

I guarantee that at 1000 yards, that combo of rifle will not on average compete with a higher BC bullet fired in a larger capacity chambering. In ideal conditions, I am sure it is accurate. Any bullet that is properly stabilized and fired out of a quality rifle will be accurate and consistant.

The kicker is what happens to that bullet after the bullet leaves the controled confines of the bore. To what degree will the environmental conditions effect that bullet and to what degree will your error in windage estimation cause the bullet to stray from desired point of impact.

On paper, the light bullets look pretty darn good. SOme even to 1000 yards but in the real world, they simply do not stack up to what the paper says. You asked the opinion from many experienced shooters that offered their advice on what they had seen from actual tests. There are a handfull of guys that say this is a good performing long range round, there are thousands of others that say there is a better way to do things.

Now I am not one to fallow the norm. God knows with my line of Allen Magnums I have pushed the limits as hard as anyone, basically the same as Richard but in the opposite direction and I caught hell for it as well, often times from those right on this board.

I also push my rounds to their pressure maxes as well but I never push things out of the norm of what the parent rounds are commonly known to produce all the time. IT is not common to drive a 300 WSM case to 4000 fps with a 125 gr bullet.

It is not common to drive a 300 RUM case to 4000 fps with a 125 gr bullet. Hell, the only semi factory round that can claim legit 4000 fps is in a 30 cal is the 7.62 Warbird using the 130 gr TSX bullet and that just barely breaks 4000 fps from their advertised numbers.

Now the Lazzeroni rounds are run pretty hard in their factory ammo. and in rifles that are built pretty well from what I have been able to see. So using common sense, would it not be understandable to set back and take a second look at claims that a 300 WSM is pushing 4000 fps with a 125 gr bullet if you know all these other facts as well????

The recommendations you received were ment to only help you get the best bang for your buck from alot of very experienced shooters that had been there and done that long before you asked the question. I believe your comments were you wanted to do it right the first time, that is what they were wanting to help you with.

Again, you can do whatever you want and it would be very interesting to see your result after building this type of a rifle but I can assure you, in shooting conditions where the down range conditions are unknown, you will have a harder time hitting smaller targets with this type of round then with a higher BC bullet, for nothing more then it makes up for your error in windage adjustment more then anything.

Please realize I have nothing against this man, I agree with him that in a properly designed rifle you can get much higher performance levels then what is the norm, but offering these numbers to the public that own hundreds of thousands of 300 WSM factory rifles and planting that seed is not responsible in my opinion.

And writing on a target that 0.162" at 100 yards = 1.620" at 1000 yards is simply laughable. Its a sells pitch is all it is in my opinion and it will work, the 4000 fps sells pitch will also work just as it did with the 257 STW, for a while anyway.

As far as the Norma cases and pressure, I have used them quite a bit in my 6.5 WSM XP-100, they will not take the pressure that the Win cases will on average. In my XP, it will get 3100 fps with a 120 gr BT, now thats out of a 15" barrel obviously but the Norma cases will only get me around 3000 fps before the primer pockets loosen up.

My last comment is not directed toward you with any disrespect but just an observation. You post on here all the time asking for recommendations, you get them and then you get this rifle build design in your head.

Then another topic comes up and nearly instantly, the plan you have for a rifle is thrown out the window for the latest great idea such as this 300 WSM thing. Then you ask about it and get the recommendations from many on this board and you decided to go another direction with your project from those recommendations.

Then the topic is brought up again and you revert back to what you wanted to do in the first place.

My advice to you, DO WHAT YOU WANT. No one will rip you for that, they may say they would have done something different but who the hell cares!!! DO what you originally want and report the results.

If you do something and it does not work out as expected be honest about it. If you do something and it turns out better then you expected, again, tell us all about it.

You simply have to have the courage to do what you want to try and stop being swayed by others opinions or you will never really get anywhere in this world. Don't ever be worried about getting hammered by someone because in the end, what does it matter. IF I had listened to everyone when I started designing my first Allen Magnum wildcat, the 257 Allen Mag, I would have stopped that idea before ever starting and more then likely the entire family of APS rounds would have never been.

Just do what you want and stop asking for approval from others, let the chips fall where they will and then be honest with your results, good or bad, you will get alot more respect in life that way then going with the current direction the wind is blowing.

Just my opinion, take it for what you will.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

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Unread 09-28-2007, 11:42 AM
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John Barnsness has writen several articles that when using pressure testing equipment that in some instances he has seen pressures nearing 60,000 psi before case head expansinon began to show a problem and many times into the 70's..The tight custom guns being the biggest culprits of this.. Sierra and Hornady manuels show no loads past 3500 fps fpr the 300 WSM and 125,130 grain bullets and only 3700 fps with the 300 RUM....
If any one is getting 4000 FPS from a 300WSM case the pressures are definately into the insane area IMHO.........
range it,check the wind, dial in correction, aim and only one shot

Last edited by jwp475; 09-29-2007 at 05:47 PM.
Unread 09-28-2007, 12:33 PM
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Just have to say good post Kirby.
I admit that I know just enough to be dangerous.....but dangerous at ever extending distances.
Unread 09-28-2007, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jwp475 View Post
Can you post the proof?
Same goes, can you post the proof for your side of this arguement and prove it is not true or are you just SWAG'ing or even WAG'ing too?

Best arguement that I have heard is that no one here has done it so it must not be true, or that it was not done by someone here.

now if you have something factual to disprove it, post it or hit the delete key.

Originally Posted by jwp475 View Post
If any one is getting 4000 FPS from a 300WSM case the pressures are definately into the insane area IMHO.........
Based on what factual data of testing with a BAT and 15 twist barrel? Remember, pressure is a product of MV and twist and more to follow on that aspect below.

My bet is we are in the WAG mode (Wild Ass Guessing) again as usual in this nay-sayer thread.

Sierra and Hornady manuels show no loads past 3500 fps fpr the 300 WSM and 125,1130 grain bullets and only 3700 fps with the 300 RUM....
Duh, that is a no-brainer if you knew how velocity, twist and jacketed bullets work.

Their loads are all figured in 10 twist barrels and the jacketed 125 will blow up at those velocities at those RPMs in any 10 twist. So just why would they post load data that they know will blow a bullet up?

The Barnes TSX is a copper solid and won't blow up. So that really makes a valid comparison, NOT!

4000 fps in a 10 twist is 288,000 RPM and no jacketed bullet survives those RPMS

4000 fps in a 15 twist is 192,000 RPM which is right in the middle of acceptable RPM ranges.

200 GR SMK is run from 170,000-210,000 RPM according to Sierra.

That is why Franklin went to a 15 twist barrel and IMO again proves he is smarter about this than the nay-sayers.

Some people here really need to learn about velocity and twist before they start harping on someone else and making totally bogus analogies with disinformation.

That is the biggest point about this whole issue that the "informed experts/nay-sayers" have missed entirely. I alluded to it all along with bringing up the twist issue and was just waiting to see if anyone was really informed/smart enough to address it or really tied to thinking in the one-dimensional 10 twist world of long range. Now we know that answer.

Another point, why in the world would I want to use a 200-240 gr bullet on a ground hog in populated areas that will richocet, when I can super velocity a smaller highly explosive bullet that will fragment if I miss. Sure, I give up a little wind (oooooh two inches, damn that one is hard to compute in the field) but gain about 75 inches in elevation. IMO that is a no brainer for shooting ground hogs.

Again two different guns, two different goals. One dimensional long range thinking does not mean that everyone lives in that world and shoots in that narrow box.

I think it is time to leave this alone if you do not have facts other than WAGs or disinformation at best.


Last edited by BountyHunter; 09-28-2007 at 04:11 PM.
Unread 09-28-2007, 03:56 PM
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Fifty, I agree with some of the things you have mentioned. I know the higher BC bullets will shoot better out to 1000 yards, I never disputed that.

I remember many on this board, including yourself, saying there is no way the 300 WSM can push the 125grn bullet at 4000fps. However, in this post, you say it can be done as long as you have the right components, Custom action, barrel, brass, propper chamber ect. So please, I think we all flip flop sometimes on our way of thinking.

You mentioned I changed my project. Yes, I changed my project because of the differnet componets I was able to get at the time and because of some of the suggestions some mentioned on this board. However, after I investigated the matter, and did my own homework, I decide to have Richard build this rifle too. I just never posted that I decided to go with the 300 WSM Varminter. It seems like there are many HATERS on this borad sometimes, and I didn't wont to hear all of the comments from people.

I think it's hypocriticle to talk about pressures when you are the one that is developing high pressure loads as well. You even mentioned that to me in your post. I know not all of your wildcats are high pressure, however, I am sure some of them are. It sounds like the POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK to me.

Also, I ask for opinions, because I want to see what others have to say. I don't change my mind because someone on here tells me to. I make my on choice. I do respects peoples opinions on this board. However, SOME, not all like to put other peoples ideas down, and I think that is wrong.

As soon as I receive my 300 WSM Varminter, I will post the results ASAP, and I will tell the truth on how it performes.

Also, you stated you had nothing against this man, however, you and others have questioned his integrity and knowledge about his case design. This man has been building rifles when you and the others were in your mothers wombs.

I gaurantee he knows much more about building rifles than you or others on his site. He builds rifles for 1000 yard bench rest shooters, long range hunters, ect. These rifles have won competitions ect, so I think he knows what he is doing. I will take his advice anyday.

Fifty, anyhow, I respect your knowledge about rifle building and ballsitics. I think you are a great wealth of knowledge on this site. However, please don't question my courage, I would never make that kind of statment to you. You don't know me, and I don't know you.

Remember, some of you said it could not be done. Well, I think there needs to an apology, because Richard has made this Chamber and bullet combonation work at 4000fps and accurately.

Richard, has built many 300 WSM Varminters in the past, and I have spoken with some of the owners about it. The ones I have talked to have said his chamber and bullet combo is absolutly awesome out to 1000 yards. They have also said they are not seeing any real bad pressure signs. They have also stated the primer pockets are staying strong and that they are getting many firings out of their Norma cases. They have also stated accuracy is awesome out to 1000 yards. I guess it seems to be doing quite well and as soon as I receive mine I will post the results.

Unread 09-28-2007, 04:24 PM
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Just to add a bit to your comment about comparing same barrel twist rates when comparing muzzle velocity results, My brother has owned a 7.82 Warbird for many years now. Back when he purchased it Lazzeroni had data on their Web page for the 130 gr X bullet loaded to a top velocity of 4020 fps using 112.0 grains of Rl-25 in a 28" 1-14 twist barrel. Pressure offered for this load was just shy of 68,000 psi.

That data has long since been removed from the Lazzeroni web site for some reason and now the lightest bullet option they list is the 150 gr loaded to 3800 fps in a 1-12 twist barrel. More interesting was the fact that before the load data offered for the Warbird only went up to 180 gr bullets.

When they came out with the 7.82 Warbird it was advertised as the ultimate long range hunting rifle and round and it was at its best with 130 to 150 gr bullets.

Now it seems that the load data for the 130s has been dropped by load data for bullets up to 220 grains have been included.

Also twist rate that is recommended has been changed from a 1-14 to a 1-12 for some reason?????

If I had to guess, I would say old Mr. Lazzeroni finally got around to testing the heavier bullets at long range and perhaps he realized that it was easier to hit at long range. Not to mention its easier to get tight ES and SD with heavier bullets.

My point simply is this, this is publised data saying that a case using 112 grains of Rl-25 will just barely break 4000 fps with a 130 gr bullet with basically the same twist rate as the rifle we are talking about.

I agree that there are many factors that can add up to increased performance but in the end, ya don't get a free ride in this game and There are only two main ingredients to getting FPS, pressure and time!!

Again, I am not saying he is not getting what he says he is getting, I am just saying there is no way he is getting it with less then 70,000 psi is all.

As far as twist rate and its effects on pressure I have had several long talks with Dan Lilja on this subject. Someone that probably knows as much about it as anyone on the planet. This was when I was designing the barrels I needed for my 7mm AM, 270 AM and 257 AM.

I asked him how much do I need to worry about pressure when jumping up to the fast twist barrels like the 1-7 to 1-8 compared to more traditional 1-10 to 1-12 twist barrels.

His comment was this, as close as I can remember it:"Pressure increases due to increase twist rates are more wives tales and mythes then anything practical. The lighter and shorter the bullet, the less effect there is, the longer and heavier the bullet you will see some effect on pressure but by and large, variations from one barrel to another will cause more pressure variation then comparing a 1-7 twist barrel to a 1-12 twist barrel."

From that I take, if your using a stubby little 125 gr bullet, it will not make enough difference to worry about.

Now his comments were concerning top end velocity potential with same bullet weights in different twist rates. He did however say that the heavier bullets may need less powder to reach their top velocity range because of a fast twist then in a slower twist but end velocity potential should be for all practical purposes the same within allowable differences from one barrel to another.

I have tested this in my 7mm AM. Shooting a 160 gr Accubond in a 27" 1-7 barrel I can get an average of 3535 fps with my top end load. WIth the same length 1-9 twist barrel, the top velocity average was 3548 fps and required two more grains of powder to reach this level of velocity but in the end, the end velocity performacne was basically identical.

ALot of read into twist rate jumping up pressures or freeing up pressures, from the experts I have talked with, this is pretty much something made up in the minds of handloaders to be honest, at least to any measureable degree. And it becomes less influencial the lighter and shorter the bullet gets in a specific caliber family.

So if he is getting legit 4000 fps with a 1-15 twist barrel, I would be suprised if he could not get 3950 at least with a 1-10.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Unread 09-28-2007, 04:51 PM
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Bountyhunter, awesome post!

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