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What a joke....

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Unread 10-02-2007, 02:40 PM
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Last edited by BountyHunter; 10-07-2007 at 07:17 PM.

Unread 10-02-2007, 02:56 PM
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Bounty Hunter,

Iwould have dropped this along time ago but since I am home with my little 10 month old girl as she has been sick the last few days I will continue the debate.

Have you ever seen a wildcat bullet? Do you know what jacket they are made with? Have you seen what they do after they impact the ground? I am sure no is the correct answer to all those questions.

You are referring to military ball ammo, that WILL NOT deform much at all after impact and will every time tumble and fly god knows where after they impact. These are not hunting bullets, these are not varmint bullets, these are not big game bullets, these are military bullets designed for one thing, to wound humans.......

Most of the Wildcat Bullets are based on the J-4 jacket or something very similiar. As such, the jackets are very thin and when they hit solid ground, they deform dramatically. When they hit big game they expand rapidly as well but because of their weight and the type of media they hit in big game they still penetrate very well. On ground, they simply turn inside out. When shooting at long range, it is VERY common, I would say 85% of the time to find these bullets right where they hit the ground.

Again, your uneducated on this subject and comparing something you know nothing about to your military back ground, again, apples and oranges trying to prove your incorrect point.

When I say you need to know your backstop, I mean everything behind your target, EVERYTHING, 50 yards behind, 100 yards behind, 1000 yards behind, miles behind even. Also know what is in the area to the sides of your target.

Please do not get holier then thou on this subject as anyone with a basics of firearm safety knows when it is safe to shoot and when it is not and if they do not they should not be in the field with a rifle, period.

Again, how you can compare FMJ ball ammos characteristics to an expanding hunting bullet after impact is again laughable!!! YOu want to compare apples to apples and chew me out for it and then do the exact opposite just because you think you can belittle me in some way. Whatever, did not work and your comparision is again, unfounded and uneducated.

Plus there has never been a documented case of a pure lead core bullet with an expanding meplate design every coming back at the shooter when fired into target media that was softer then the bullet material itself. If you have an instance, please provide the proof of that because I have a couple studies on this and the only bullets that produced any return to shooter trajectory after impact were FMJ designs, solids, or mild steel core bullets. Two of the three are military designs that you refer to but have no place in this discussion as they are not varmint or big game bullets at any range and in most states, illegal to shoot game with anyway.

One of my 338 bullets will not go anywhere near as far as a mild steel core 50 cal ball projectile will after impact. PLEASE, I am sure your smarter then that. DO you believe that one of my 338 bullets will retain even 1/2 of its original weight after impact with anything when launched at 3500 fps at the muzzle.

By the way, what is the BC of a mangled mass of copper and lead that weighs 150 grains at most and is roughly 1.5" in diameter compared to a steel core 50 cal bullet that will weigh in the mid 600 grain to 700 grain range depending on bullet that has retained its basic clean original bullet profile.

Again, apples to oranges, your flip flopping like a dead fish here my friend. YOu can not compare FMJs and steel core projos to a thin jacketed expanding big game bullet when talking about secondary trajectories after bullet impact.

Also, I never implied that my AMs never miss. I was always talking about ground impacts, thought that was the obvious logical thing to think but I guess not.

OK, the 300 WSM is the king of the 1000 yard BR would, please tell me what bullet is used to win the heavy and light gun matches???

A 6.5-284 will break 1000 rounds of barrel life without even breaking a sweat. My god!!! Most BR shooters will pull the barrels every year anyway.

I am sure you realize how many BR take off barrels are purchased second had every year and the new owner has them fitted to a new rifle and they get many hundreds of rounds of barrel life out out of them and many times still 1/2 moa accuracy. Some even for 1000 rounds after being refitted. I think you are hanging around some guys that either are very hard on barrels or give up on barrels way to quickly. Again, if a barrel will hold 1/2 moa I feel its still very useful, maybe you and your crowd do not feel that way.

You bet the comment of you calling me Jim Jones is real simple. He was a nut that talked hundreds of people into killing themselves. To compare me to him is insulting at best and just shows of your character more then anything. How you could compare anyone that you are in an intellegent debate with to a mass murderer is beyond my comprehension but it speaks volumes. Maybe we should think before we type. Can't take those ones back. I could care less but it does suprise me from our dealings prior to this however. You are not who I thought you were......

again you refer to me and my customers as a "Cult". What the hell is up with this line of thinking. You give me alot more credit then I deserve. The long range, high BC bullet crowd was around long before me. I do not think I talked Sierra into coming out with their Match king bullets. Pretty sure they have always been around and a solid performer in all BR matches, especially long range.

Pretty sure I did not talk Walt Berger into designing his bullets. Hell he was in the long range BR hall of fame before I started building rifles.

What the hell are you talking about. Your just ranting like a crazy man now. This is not just me or my customers, its 95% of all long range shooters including yourself by your own comments. What is the rabid point you are trying to make. I think you have a chip on your shoulder against me and thats about it because your debate points do not make any sense and you do not even use your own recommendations again by your own confessions to us in this post.

You are probably right, my AMs are not suited to eastern varmint hunting. Can someone please tell me when I EVER said the AMs were designed for anything but long range big game hunting???????????

To that degree, the 300 WSM with the 125 gr BT at 4000 yards is pretty much worth less for western big game hunting. Does that comment make any sense at all? About as much as yours about my rounds being varmint rifles.

Still, your 300 WSM load is no better as a western varmint round either...

The AMs were designed to offer extreme performance on big game at any range the shooter was compitent to shoot to. Every wildcat I have designed has clearly been noted to have barrel life between 800 and 1200 rounds max. Every customer of mine knows this from the start. The thing is for a big game rifle, even a heavily used big game rifle, you will maybe put 100 rounds down the barrel during load development with my rifles to get its preferred load. Generally I send the rifle home with the load that will be used in the rifle. Often only 50 rounds are used for break in and load development. Then the rest are used for big game hunting which if you get 10 shots a year, you are either doing ALOT of big game hunting and killing alot of game or your a bad shot.

So lets see, even in the worst case, 800 round barrel life. If you take 100 rounds to find the preferred load, that leaves you with around 700 rounds of accurate barrel life left. If you shoot even 20 rounds a year at big game, and figure around 20 to 30 before every year to get the rifle back up to speed and ready for the hunting season, thats 50 rounds a year. That means that one barrel, used for very heavy big game hunting use will offer 15 years of accurate barrel life before needing rebarreling.

Ya, thats freakin useless barrel life there my friend. Again, your debate don't float!!! And thats the worst case senerio!!! Ya know how many trophy heads will be on my wall from 700 rounds through my 7mm AM.

ALso, with every AM that goes out the door, I tell my customers to practice with a barrel user friendly rifle to learn long range shooting, not their AM. Only use it to get ready for the season and for the actual season. Its kind of like using the every day driver to drive to and from work. Easy to drive and good gas milage all year.

Then when race season comes, you untarp the 1000 HP big blocked Chevelle and you race!!!

Again, you have no education on my rounds, you have never shot one, you have never seen one used in the field, you have no reliable comments other then opinion and suspection. I build many 300 WSMs every year as well so on this matter I have experience on both ends, you do not.

Now cost effective bullets, your going to tell me that paying $18 for a box of 50 125 gr BTs will make you sink or swim compared to buying any other conventional bullet on the market. Lets see for 600 chucks, that comes to $216 for the BT. For 600 200 gr ULD RBBTs it comes to $360 for the same number of bullets. Also, I just ordered in some 208 gr A-Max bullets. For 100 bullets they cost about $3 more then the 125 gr BT. So the difference for 600 bullets, a grand total of $18.

Again, your comparision does not hold water. We have already establised that the AMs are not varmint rounds so stop bring them into this discussionlike they are.

A 300 WSM loaded with teh 208 gr A-Max will offer dramatically less wind drift, same barrel life, at least as explosive expansion, very little if any bullet bouce threat after impact, in fact less then the 125 gr BT because the jacket of the BT will stay intact and it being much thicker then the A-Max jacket will weigh at least as much and carry at least as far after ground impact.

And you get this for an ecomically crippling $18 more then the BT. Again, your arguing points do not float....Talk about blinders pulled tight to your head!!!!! Open your damn eyes and see what you yourself does for long range shooting.

Now to flipping a mature rock chuck 10 feet in the air, you will NEVER see that happen at 1000 yards with any of the chamberings you are talking about. I have done this, hundreds of times on chucks far smaller then your easter chucks with rifles far more potent then you are using. Flipping a chuck 10 feet in the air simply does not happen at 1000 yards. Now most will eggagerate and say it happens but they are simply telling stories and we all like our stories to be better then the last guy.

Back to the AMs as varmint rounds again, drop it, they are not varmint rounds, the only one that has referred to them in that way is you in a poor attempt to call them barrel burners for varmint hunting, NO S___!!!

I said the AMs are on the top rung of the big game cartridge classes in each caliber they are in.

YOu said the 300 WSM with the 125 gr BT at 4000 fps was the supreme varmint round out to 1000 yards, I simply proved you wrong with that comment as there are many that will match it and even exceed it greatly with alot less fuss then the 300 WSM.

My point was the AMs are on the top of the performance ladder, the WSM is not on the top of the varmint ladder............

Is 68,000 psi excessive pressure? Hell, factory Wby loads are loaded to this level and have been for many decades. We were referring to a 300 WSM that was predicted to be loaded to in excess of 72,000 psi and in a case that is known to be soft as all Norma cases are.

Again apples to apples my friend, I know your trying hard here but I can bring facts against your wild comments all day long, at least until my little girl gets feeling better.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Unread 10-02-2007, 03:01 PM
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Man your a hard headed fella.

Yes, that is the price for my correct headstamped 338 Allen Magnum preformed cases.

So you have any idea what you can get 408 CT cases for and size them yourself???? Thought not. Again your uneducated on the subject, please stop making your self look bad.

Last batch of TTI 408 CT cases I ordered ran $195 for 100 cases. You can form your own for free if you sit on the loading bench for a couple hours. Your right, thats close to $3.50 each.

The cases that cost $3.50 each are custom cases, hell there are only 1000 to be made so far, they have the 338 AM headstamp and are preformed by me for my customers. $3.50 is a steal to get correct headstamped cases for such a limited number of cases for such a unique case design.

Again, get educated before you come to a debate. This is to easy and your loosing credit everytime you reply.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Unread 10-02-2007, 03:07 PM
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A couple things I would like to know from you.

You said you researched all these posts where my Allen Magnums were shooting loads to the point where bolt lift was heavy. I asked you to supply me with those posts and you did not, GET TO IT!!!:mad:

If you are going to imply that my wildcats are unsafe, back up what you way you have found.

Second, I am sure you already forgot this question, you said the 300 WSM won the HG and LG this year right.

Please tell us what bullet they used?

Also, please tell us what bullet you use in your 300 WSM even though you already have, I just want to see it in another of your posts from your own fingers......

Still have no clue why your so hot about this subject. I think it comes down to some personal issues you have against me. Hell, a simple e-mail would have been easier and made you look much better as well. at least I can respect a guy for saying he does not care for me.

Sleep is certainly something I will not loose however. Ya learn alot about a guy from these adventures, thank you for showing me the light on who you really are. Apparently someone that has not cared for me for some time now.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Unread 10-02-2007, 03:39 PM
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Interesting and very accurate shooting rifle. Orignial point of thread was the comment that 0.162" = 1.620" at 1000 yards.

Funny found this on his web page.

Lets see, this is from the same rifle, very accurate rifle by the way!! Still, if 0.162" at 100 yards = 1.620" 1000 yards, why is it that the rifle shot a 0.512" group at 200 yards???

It should have been 0.324" at 200 yards????

Let me ammend the original statement, 0.512" at 200 yards equals 2.560" at 1000 yards. There that is realistic!!!;)

Suprised there were no 1000 yard targets posted on the web page. Maybe there are and I just did not see them, Wildcat and BH, can you tell me where these would be posted at so I can see them as well?

Again, just poking fun, obviously the rifles are extremely accurate but he is using 4000 fps as a sales ploy and nothing more and its working.

Interestingly, I read through his customer replies, obviously he does good work and keeps his customers happy, a sign of a true professional. What I found interesting however is that Wildcat Made it sound like the 300 WSM was one of his main rounds he builds rifles on. I did not see that in the 25 customer replies he has posted on his sight. In fact there were only two that said anything about a 30 cal and only one that said anything specifically about a 300 WSM. Most were 6mms and 6.5s that had their replies posted.

Again, from everything I can read it seems like Richard runs a top notch shop. Spendy but top notch. Still, I see no more merit in the slow twist 300 WSM now then I did before. Rifle quality is obviously world class. To get a rifle to shoot in the .1s at 100 yards and in the 1/4 moa range at 200 yards is good work. Can take nothing against that.

Even more interesting, in the photo gallery section, there are 40 different rifles pictured. There is only ONE 300 WSM in the group and that is Richards personal rifle. Does that not seem odd Wildcat is correct and he is pumping out 300 WSM hyper velocity rifles all the time. Hard to imagine that there would not be at least one customers rifle on the list of pics if this was the new greatest varmint chambering. Again, the vast majority were 22 cal, 6mm and 6.5mm cal rifles.

Nothing against Richard in any way, I think its Wildcat that has been offering us some inflated numbers about the popularity of the 300 WSM out of this shop as it appears that they are quite rare. Just what it looks like from looking over Richards web sight, again, he builds very impressive rifles. I think Wildcat is the one putting a bad spin on this entire thing.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:

Last edited by Fiftydriver; 10-02-2007 at 03:46 PM. Reason: More to add.
Unread 10-02-2007, 04:54 PM
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This has been a long, fascinating thread. I'd hate to take an exam on all the points/counterpoints brought up.

Pertinent to the discussion, I Googled up the results of some current long range competitions. A variety of 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm and .308 cartridges were used, but the top finishers had one thing in common: they all used bullets with a bc exceeding .500.

The Nosler 125gr BT has a bc of .366. So it just seems reasonable, if we are to learn anything from the top long range rifle competitors, that Richard Franklin should recommend a .500 bc bullet as a choice for his longrange 300WSM Varminter. This, of course, would require a faster twist than 1-15.

The hits with the .500 bc bullets would probably not be as explosive, but it is logical that there would be more of them at the longer ranges...just a matter of priorities, I guess.

Last edited by LewisH; 10-02-2007 at 06:15 PM.
Unread 10-02-2007, 05:30 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Great Falls, MT
Posts: 203
I guess I'll jump into this...(plugging nose)...

BH, I do not doubt you at all, but, what are the physics of a bullet coming back at you? I REALLY don't want to try this at home. I believe what you said, I just want to know HOW! or more accuratly, how not to!!!

On the safety side of this; if a shot, even back east, is not safe with one of Kirby's rounds, I really don't think it would be safe for any rifle/bullet combo. If it aint safe for a 338AM, it probably aint a good idea with a 300Varminter either. Maybe that's just me.

Don't get he wrong idea about me, I might live right around the corner from Kirby but I've never met him (I would like to) and I PERSONALLY have no use for one of his rifles(YET). Heck I'm still tickled if I shoot a deer at 400 yards. 1000 yards is still just a dream for me. One of his guns for me would be like driving a nascar to the store for bread, just a complete waste of a great tool.

Finally, my thoughts on the 300Varminter. I believe he did it; a 125gr bullet at 4000fps, it doesn't matter to me how. But, I think 4000FPS is a marketing tool more than realistic results, and it's working. Maybe it should be renamed the 30-4000, same as the 250-3000. If I wanted a rifle to shoot varmints MOSTLY up to 500 yards and occationally out to 1000, I would consider it (and a 6-284, and a 22/308 and a ...). If most of my shots were going to be on the other side of 500 yards, I would probably go for the heavier bullet. THAT'S JUST ME. IMHUO (uninformed) speed beats BC out to 400 yards, and BC beats speed after 1000yards. What happens in the middle is a toss up, you have to decide whats best for you.
"Honey, I need to buy two's for an experiment..." I don't think my better half will go for it, but I'll try.
Genises 27-3: Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison...
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