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What a joke....

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Unread 10-01-2007, 11:19 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,651
Fifty, good info.

I am going to stick with the 1-15 twist barrel. Richard has said this is the best twist for the purpose of this rifle.

I know this set up is going to work for my purpose.

Regarding the 208grn A-Max, thanks for that info too. My next rifle will be a 30/338 Lapua Improved, so I will try 208grn A-Max for sure. The 300 WSM will be used for shots out to 1000 yards. Anything past 1000 yards, I will use the 30/338 Lapua Improved with a bullet like the 208grn A-Max.

Another reason why I like the 300 WSM Varminter set up with the light bullet, the recoil issue. Like I said, I should have posted the intended purpose for this type of set up. It probably would have made it more undestandable why I like it.


Unread 10-02-2007, 06:57 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NY
Posts: 394
Buy the rifle and report back. Sounds interesting, but defies conventional wisdom. My experience with light bullets fired fast at long range has been somewhat disappointing. I like the heavier high BC bullets myself, but as I stated this project sounds interesting. Worst case is you toss the barrel, and buy one in a 10 or 11 twist. No flame intended..........

Frank D
"A tie is as good as a loss, and no one remembers second place."
Unread 10-02-2007, 08:38 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wilmington NC
Posts: 4,690

Last edited by BountyHunter; 10-07-2007 at 07:15 PM.
Unread 10-02-2007, 09:04 AM
Official LRH Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841

Your comments about the bullets traveling to far after hitting the animal are pretty weak. No matter the bullet, you better have a safe back stop no matter what bullet your shooting, 50 gr 22 cal or 750 gr 50 cal.

The decision to shoot should not be any different, you better have safe back stop no matter what.

Your other comments simply show how unable you are to admit that your no more right them you think I am wrong. This is tiresome when your talking to a brick wall.

Now as far as the personal attacks calling me "Jim Jones". Not sure how things work in your area but here in the west, if we were face to face, you would have some serious explaining to do referring me to a mass murderer.... Explain your comments friend.

Your comparision of bullet prices is again laughable. What did you find the heaviest Wildcat bullet you could and take those prices. Maybe you should get the prices of the 50 cal bullets, they are alot heavier and cost more with lead prices.

As far as the bullets you list, they are totally custom bullets with no other bullets anywhere near their class of performance as far as penetration or ballistic performance.

In comparision, what does a 350 gr SMK cost, oh ya, there isn't one!!!!

Your passing into the rediculous stage here and I loose more respect for your debating ability every time you reply with more of your nonsense.

Also, I have more work then I know what to do with. I spend zero on advertising because its all word of mouth.

Customers wanting the ultimate in ballisitic performance for big game want the Allen Magnums for many reasons, they are extremely accurate, they are extremely powerful and they simply work without running them to red line.

If you want to learn more, please post a topic saying how the Allen Magnums are simply a waste of time and see what replies you get.

Anyway, your lack of ability to see things as they really are is hard for me to sit here and watch. I offer you an example that kicks the hell out of your pet project here with same or better barrel life, better expansion, better retained velocity and you still can not see it. You can lead a horse to water but.......

Anyway, you are really getting to be a waste of time. The debate started off as a good one, now its simply turned into you and Wildcat stroking each other and refusing to listen to logical comparisions that prove a point other then what you want to hear.

Good ridden to both of you, build the rifle and report back, can't wait to hear how it turns out.

Again, I am sorry this post when in this direction, I had alot of respect for you before the many posts you just posted on this topic and your lack of realistic thinking when a better option is put right in front of you comparing apples to apples and you still simply refuse to see it or even admit that it exits simply because of ego and the desire to be right no matter what info is offered against your stand.

Have a good day, this is a weak debate now, just a ******* match is all.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Unread 10-02-2007, 10:30 AM
Gold Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: FREE RUN, MS
Posts: 774
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Oh! and 800 round barrel life.....hhmmm....1/4 barrel life....200 well placed bullets resulting in 200 "DEAD" big game animals.....THATS ALOT OF MEAT! Or would you rather cut it to 1/10 barrel life for 80....still more big game animals than most will ever kill! Several years worth, Whats so expensive about $600 rebarrel every 10-15 years? Cheaper than a scope!
Youll spend that much in one season on gas!

Kirby Ill be ordering another soon! The biggest baddest powder burinng deer killing machine you can dream up! Nevermind you already done that!

Post up those results when you get them, so me can DISCUSS goods and bads of it in a debate not a peepee contest. NO comparin apples to oranges just tell us what it will and wont do....Ill do the same soon with a new AM.....I hope you will agree that first hand experience is way better than an article in a magazine, internet or just plain ol hersay.

Last edited by NYLES; 10-02-2007 at 10:44 AM.
Unread 10-02-2007, 11:32 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841
Wildcat and Bounty Hunter,

Alright here, I will take a risk here and step into the lions den with you. Lets look at simply varmint rounds. We have established the performance levels at 1000 yards with the 300 WSM with the 125 gr BT at a 4000 fps launch velocity. Here are the specs:

Chambering..........Wind drift..........Retained velocity.......Retained energy
300 WSM................84"...................1530 fps..................652 ft/lbs

Lets compare some other varmint rounds to these numbers:

6mm-250 with 105 gr A-Max at 3000 fps
Velocity........1465 fps
energy..........500 ft/lbs

260 Rem with 140 gr A-Max at 2850 fps
Velocity........1460 fps
Energy..........660 ft/lbs

6.5-284 with 140 gr A-Max at 3000 fps
Velocity.........1546 fps
Energy...........743 ft/lbs

Now these are but three of dozens of examples I can put up to show that the performance you are getting by red lining the 300 WSM with light bullets is not all that impressive. You can take a smaller capacity round with equal or better throat life and match or exceed the performance you are getting in from your WSM loading. Plus, with no more bullet bounce threat then you would have with the 125 gr Ballistic Tip and terminal performance on varmint critters is just as good if not better.

If we look at the lowly 6mm-250, hell even it beats the 300 WSM in wind drift and comes very close to matching its velocity. Yes the 300 has a slight edge in retained energy but recoil energy for the 300 will be dramatically higher then the 6-250. I have customers right now well past 1300 rounds on the 6mm-250s I have built them that are still sub 1/2 moa rifles with no sign of slowing down.

The mild mannered 260 Rem will pretty much match the retained velocity, improve on the retained energy and offer less wind drift as well. Again, with less recoil, longer barrel life and just as impressive bullet terminal performance on varmints.

The 6.5-284, again a very mild mannered round recoil wise, MUCH less then the 300 WSM offers better performance all around. Its amazing how you can start out 1000 fps slower but at 1000 yards actually have a retained velocity advantage. Funny how that happens when you let the bullet do the work for you instead of thinking you can flat out horse power light bullets down range to make up for ballisticly poor bullet designs.

Now you certainly can not say the 6.5-284 is to overbore for a high volume shooter, hell, its the baby of the 1000 yard br world and just about the standard for long range moderate performance varmint rounds.

Read that again, the standard for long range moderate performance varmint rounds.

Its amazing how a moderate performance varmint round will match what you feel to be the ultimate performance round at 1000 yards.

again, hard numbers, bring on the spin this time.

I was wrong, I thought this was pointless but its beginning to be fun to see how you spin things.... I have walked into your circle of specifications for rounds that this design is supposed to compete against and have offered solid numbers to show there are better down range rounds or at least equal in performance with much less recoil and muzzle blast. I always thought muzzle blast was a concern of eastern hunters, Guess everything you hear about that is not true either.

In addition to this, the 260 and 6.5-284 are also legit 1500 yard rounds, something the 300 WSM is not really good at, at least not with the little bullets. As far as super sonic velocity, the 300 WSM with its hyper velocity will reach WAY OUT to around 1325 yards with super sonic velocity.

The little 6.5-284 will reach well past 1500 yards with no worries about dropping out of super sonic velocity. Now I know you will only be shooting out to 1000 yards, never to 1001 or 1010 yards or anything like that so this may not be of concern but the way my logic works, if I am going to invest in a single high dollar rifle, why not get one that will do as much as possible as long as it does it very well and within the design specs of the chambering chosen.

Now its not sexy to say your getting 3000 fps with a 140 gr A-Max for sure. Just does not have that ring like 4000 fps does, I think that may be the issue here more then anything, espeically with Wildcat.

Its not sexy to say you are driving a 200 gr ULD RBBT to 3200 fps in my 8.5 lb lightweight 7mm AM big game rifle. I have had dozens of guys come to the shop with their latest, greatest 7mm RUMs, 300 RUMs and 30-378s saying hell, they can match that velocity or exceed it dramatically with their rifles.

Then when I take many of these guys out to the range at long range when they have problems hitting targets at long range with their wonder magnums and tell them to shoot my 20" gong at 1500 yards and see what a 10 mph wind does to their Accubond and then I let them shoot my 7mm AM in the same conditions.

They quickly realize that their rifles that are offering the same performance as my 7mm AM are getting blown 14 to 16 FEET off target.

I then let them shoot my rifle and they see that my 7mm AM with the "OVERPRICED" wildcat bullets and run to very comfortable levels in pressure compared to their hot loads, has less then half that drift(well under 7 feet) they begin to see the light on the value of ballistic efficency in bullet designs.

Then when they actually hit the gong with their rifle and then hit it with my 7mm AM, the difference in down range energy and power is truely obvious. The best 7mm RUM loads with the 160 gr Accubonds at 3300 fps will have less then 500 ft/lbs of retained energy at 1500 yards. THe monster 30-378 Wby with a 200 gr Accubond at 3300 fps, Just shy of 700 ft/lbs for that monster round.

My 7mm AM, with the "OVERPRICED" wildcat bullets, tops 1400 ft/lns of energy at that range.

Now I know these are not varmint rifles, just an example of how many shooters THINK they have the best rifle for their situation and use but in fact seldom do and are often sold the goods with high velocity pitches which seldom hold true anyway.

You can say what you want about the AMs, they do what they do and they do it well and they do it as designed and they do it as well or better then anything out there.

That can not be said for the 300 WSM when comparing it to the other long range varmint rounds.

SO while you want to compare my AMs to the other big game rounds out there, for big game hunting, go for it, they are on the top of the performance ladder in every caliber family of big game hunting.

Again, as far as true varmint rounds, the 300 WSM, loaded the way you want to, struggles to get close to the top rung and can only do this by red lining the case design in the process. Hell the examples I noted for the 6mm-250, 260 Rem and 6.5-284 are just comfortable top end loads in a 30" barrel length. Much more could be had, hell, if loaded to the pressure you are wanting to load the 300 WSM to, the comparisions would not even be close as they would far favor the smaller rounds.

Ok, your turn, lets see if you can see the logic here or if we are just in blind disagreement still.

By the way, there is no need to apologize on either side, just good debate if we can get this thread back to that playing field and stay away from personal attacks.

Kirby Allen(50)(aka Jim Jones as far as BH believes)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
Unread 10-02-2007, 01:18 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wilmington NC
Posts: 4,690

Last edited by BountyHunter; 10-07-2007 at 07:15 PM.
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