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Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

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Unread 02-26-2004, 10:28 AM
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Thats a decent group Ric.But I wonder what it would do if you shot five shots. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is my post to you Ric that got your panties in a bunch.Nothing was said about 10 shots..I gave you props Ric.I said it was a decent group.But it's not impressive.There is no doubt in my mind that someone with any reloading abilty can make a good shooting factory gun shoot the same.If you got a problem with that I'm sorry.But who has the ego now......... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img]
Boyd Heaton...
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Unread 02-26-2004, 10:30 AM
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Your shooting a custom hunting rifle, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So was I...
Boyd Heaton...
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Unread 02-26-2004, 11:22 AM
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

ok here is my take on this whole group mess... Depending on what you are planning to do with your gun is what your after.. In other words if I want to have a chance to win @ williamsport 1000br my gun better be shooting right around 4" 10 shot groups and better.. Why? because if its not your not gonna win bottom line.. So who the hell cares what 3 4 or 5 shots can do its 10 that counts in that game..

Now if im building a Tactical type hunting rig I am not gonna be concerned about 10 shot groups.. Why? 1 its not built for BR.. 2 its a tactical rig and made to get drug around and get dirty so I am not gonna be as tight on chambers like I am with my BR guns.. 3 will be shooting off of bi-pods or maybe sticks resting on a tree or something.. so 3-5 shot groups that are under .5 MOA @ 100yds would be fine for me.. But that is the intended purpose of that gun.. I wouldnt shoot it in a match were 10shots are needed and 4" or lower groups are needed to win.. I may for fun but wouldnt count on wining.. But here is the kicker the BR guns also make great hunting rifles while tactical rigs dont always make great BR rifles.. Ric you got some mighty fine groups with that rifle dont be ashamed of them either.. I think people just need to take a look at what the gun was built for if its not built to BR specs dont expect it to hold up with BR standards...

6.5 Bandit
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Unread 02-26-2004, 11:36 AM
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..


I am calm.. now.. caught be before my first cup of coffee.. bad idea...

you are right they are comparing apples to oranges.. but they can't or won't admit it.


My original post was not bashing or bad mouthing anything.. it was an observation that has all the truth in the world to it and I know many if not the majority here agree. I wasn't refereing to my groups but to numerous others here as well. I wasn't really upset in my first post but really debating wehter or not to post it.. buu I felt it had to be said after some e-mails I have recieved not just this time but other times as well even when things were said about someone elses groups. It is clear that any time someone posted a group it was automatically compared to a 10 shot string at "WP" or somthing to the degree of.. that good but now try "X" number of shots...
well thats a peaches and cream if we all had BR guns and shot with $600 rests off concrete benchs but we don't. I have yet to see the " die hard "WP" " boys put up pics of their rifles shooting tiny groups off a bi-pod .. and I'll go on record right now and be the first to give an "atta boy" to anyone shooting 5" or less over 500 yards.. from a prone postiion off a bi-pod thats just not that easy to get a good group unless you know you stuff.
My whole entire point in this thread was..

and the coment of that you would expect a factory gun to shoot like that.. maybe once in a blue moon... or the occasional great factory stick.. but it is easy to see I actually pulled one shot in that 770 group or the wind caught me. 2 shots are within 1.5" of each other and I know they were the 1st and 3rd shot. What would you smith reactlike if I said his rifles shoot like a factory stick? Man that was unfounded, untrue and pretty ballsie! I have yet to see numerous factory sticks shoot like that... and you can't compare those factory sticks you talking about like they are used in the LR video's those rests are damn near like a bench situation. I know I shot from them!

Like I said until you guys are shooting like that off a pi-pod it is hard to validate your response. Not groups from a bench or an ultimate tri-pod.. prone on the ground... with a bi-pod..I you have done this or can do it.. hell tell me or show me.. I'll give props...

ask JB he just shot 5 shots at 300 from a bi-pod.. it just ain't as easy as a concrete bench....

JB.. I mag fed all my groups.. I tend to shoot like I would in a hunting situation... I think you know that it ain't as easy as ya may think.

the 300WSM only holds 3 so thats why I have really only shot 3 shots from both rifles...

6.5 Bandit,
See you get what I am saying! I agree that some BR guns would make great hunting rifles but.. how many guys do you see willing to expose their 1K Br gun to the eliments and dirt of hunting? So may but you know the rifle is kept all warm and fuzzy until they are ready for a shot... How many of them do you see screw on a bi-pod to the end of it?

but don't worry boys.. I will ( if I have the time and the weather cooperates ) be shooting 5 and 10 shot groups this weekend.

back to my original point and then I'm off the soap box....

1. What validates a good group?
2. What validates a good rifle?
3. How many shots make it valid or accepted?

does anyone consider the set up shooting situation and conditions when guys are posting the pics?

All I want is for the masses here to keep things relative..and in perspective. We are a select diverse group... who has it tough enough

[ 02-26-2004: Message edited by: *WyoWhisper* ]
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Unread 02-26-2004, 01:07 PM
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

No where in my post did I COMPARE Ric's gun to ten shot groups or BR guns.If he were to have shot five shots.I think we all know what the outcome would have been.BIGGER.If you are happy with the gun and group Ric I am happy for you.I myself would rather buy a 500 dollar Savage that would do the same thing.Then spend a few thousand dollar on a Decent shooting custom rig...Enjoy your gun......
Boyd Heaton...
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Unread 02-26-2004, 01:56 PM
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..


Now that things have settled down a tad let me add something that was mentioned and some other thoughts.

There have been some good answers from JB and 6.5.

We "are" comparing apples to oranges here. The Tactical rifle was not meant to be a
benchrest style rifle however many bench guns are used for Longrange hunting.

I think for testing purposes, a 5 shot group should be used and a "Bench" and rests
should be used at "first" to get the "full" potential of even "your" tactical rifle. Then after that, go to the bi-pod and see what you can do with it with the bi-pod on.
It may "not" shoot any better from the bench?

As per the factory rifles shooting good groups. Yes, I have seen Sendaros and 40X remingtons shoot every bit as good as some of the groups I have seen posted here from the Tactical types, yours included.

Not sure if they would be consistant as yours but, I believe they would with a bi-pod attached as you like to shoot. A good test would be for "you" to shoot each type and cpmpare the two on the same day and near the same time. Every shooter is different.

I mentioned before that I saw a Sendaro win the light gun class at Williamsport with a 10 shot 8" group. Some factory guns will do that. His 100 yard group was very small.
I know that the 40X (have had many) will shoot as good as many custom tactical guns do. Not all but, many. It depends on the shooter, the loading he does and conditions that day. The quality is very good in the 40x.

You mentioned helping the new guy on here.
Cost for a custom gun such as yours, probably $2000.00 or more.
I think most newbies would opt to buy a Sendaro for $600.00 or a 40X for $1000.00 rather then go the route for a custom job when the Factory will probably do the same thing especially at the 100 yard and 700 yard mark. We are talking hunting here.
I think you know which one most on this forum will buy especially if they are a newbie? If your wanting to help the new guy, then we must give credit to the factory rifle also as a hunting style rifle that you
can attach a bi-pod on. I have a factory Sendaro in the 300 Weatherby rifle that would be a fine 1000 yard rifle for hunting and it just sits in my closet.

As per Boyds fine 5 shot group with the 300 RUM (I think) and 240 gr bullets.
The gun is not a full custom as you may think if it's the one I think it was.
That rifle has the lowly Mauser action, a long stainless barrel and a chunk of wood that's not that great.

At 100 yards it does well but, if I remember correctly, it did not shoot that well at 1000 yards and that's when he went to the 300 WSM and shortened the barrel. Boyd will correct me if I'm wrong. That group could have been with the rechambered 300WSM using the 240 gr but, I don't think so.

Your group from a bi-pod was a decent group. Your rifle is made for hunting and if it's good enough for you, that's all that counts.

I do think that 5 shots should be the proving grounds for any custom gun that you want to see the potential it has and it should be shot from a bench and rests "at first."
This procedure will give you the confidence in the rifle and know in your own mind that if you shoot a bad group with a bi-pod on
after you have proven that the rifle is a tack driver, it's either shooter error, condition changes, loading problems or a host of other things. Could be the bi-pod on a very hard surface to.

You don't have to try 10 shots with that rifle. It will be fine for the intended purpose it was made for as it is and the groups it is shooting.

DC [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Darryl Cassel
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Unread 02-26-2004, 02:35 PM
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..


That is like asking the question which is the better car, a NASCAR car, a Indy car, dirt track car or a plane jane ford or chevy.

Each has certain applications. for example no one should expect a Rem mountain rifle with pencil thin barrel shoot as tight (take your pick 3, 5, or 10) as a BR gun with 1" barrel.

I generally for hunting gun look for cold bore shot on the X and reasonably tight slow fire 3 or 5 shot group. Even then I always test at least 3-4 times to confirm and on different days.

My br guns, I am only looking for tight groups. Depending on conditions I have shot as few as 3 sighters in 6 minute period or as many as 10-12. I like to take test shots in rapidly changing conditions to notice the change from my selected and hopefully final condition before record fire.

If I have a heavy barrel gun that should shoot sub .5 and I have a 3 shot group with one out, think I am going to shoot 2 more to see what they do. I think heavy more accurate guns should be tested with 5 shot groups to confirm accuracy, no heat induced or barrel bedding problems.

Bottom line is I look for consistency to whatever "standard" I am expecting that gun to shoot.

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