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Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

 
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  #148  
Old 03-09-2004, 05:27 PM
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Townsville Australia
Posts: 98
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Wyo,The only way i can see your "benchmark" idea getting sorted out is to have a "postal competition"..Set rules for classes,a target style,2 distances say 600 and 1000,number of shots ETC,put it on over a coupla months so people have time to enter..JR..Jeff Rogers..ps..Mabye even an entry fee that could be given to charity after the comp is over,I got my $5 out ready,bring it on ,i'll get more Aussies to cough up as well !!
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  #149  
Old 03-09-2004, 05:52 PM
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Ric

As an addition here.

The "ONLY" way a person could even begin to come close to having a resonable way of know/guessing the capailities of each class of rifle is to----Have the best marksman in the country Shot "each" rifle or class of rifles in a tunnel such as the 300 meter tunnel at Sierra. They could also pick the best condtions at 1000 yards and test it.

That's the trouble with 1000 yard compitions, you don't get to pick and choose when you shoot. The conditions may be at their worst and that's when you have to shoot in your relay.
If we could pick the time of day to hold matches it would be just before dark and you would see records fall almost every match.

To have a grip on expected accuracy from each class of rifles will not be proven by a Postal match either.
As mentioned before, all rifles are not created equal even in the "same" class format. One person may have a better shooting rifle in the same class and also shoot it in better conditions then the other shooter. This proves nothing at all.

Expected accuracy is that of which you are satisfied, because you are the one who paid the price for it. That's all that counts. If your rifle kills at the range you want to hunt and that makes you happy, that's all that matters.

Who cares what the expected/guessing accuracy potential of a given rifle is? There are exceptional factory rifles just as there are customs.
Joe smuck may have a factory rifle that beats other factory rifles of the same brand and calibers just like some customs have better accuracy then one built by the same gunsmith and in the same caliber.
To many variables to make a guess on accuracy potential.

Later
DC [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-09-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
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  #150  
Old 03-09-2004, 06:09 PM
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Location: Townsville Australia
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Yea Wyo,i hind sight Darryl is right,the only way it could work is if you had lots of entry's in each class then it would be a average of the aggs in a variety of conditions across the world..JR..Jeff Rogers..still, it might be fun
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  #151  
Old 03-09-2004, 06:16 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York
Posts: 90
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Is this a long range hunting board, or a 1000 yard PA. bench club board? There is a difference.
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  #152  
Old 03-09-2004, 06:42 PM
*WyoWhisper*
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Ok.. DC I see or hear what you are saying... here's and example..

lets say Brent is new here and says .. I wanna learn this LRH thing.. he gets advice to purchase a 300WM Sendero.... he gets home gets it zeroed.. and works up a load...

now he shoot a group... and posts it to the board... lets say it is 5 shots and measures .780 center to center...
he might get replies that say ..
" Yup brent thats a good load and acceptable accuracy for that factory rifle"
or
" brent, given that rifle on average they are capable of much better.. on average you can expect or should be able to average .550" " maybe you should tweek your load or look for a building defect"
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  #153  
Old 03-09-2004, 09:09 PM
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Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Ric

With all the information in the archives on different loads for most any big cartridge, and all the information a person can get here, I believe a newbie would not post to picture from a .780" group without experimenting a long time and seeing what the best groups are he can shoot. He should get it down to 1/2" and see if it will repeat that 5 shot group. He could then mention what his rifle did. He could also ask if it is capable of doing better which I would doubt.

If he can't seem to get the group down any further then the original .780", He should simply ask a question on the forum such as---
Hey fellows, I've tried this bullet and this powder in my new 300 WM Sendaro and I can only seem to get a .780" group. Now I know from past posts by others on this forum that I should be able to do better. Any suggestions?----
When asked in that manner, he will be overwelmed with information.

Theres no way to have a set standard or place a MOA expectation on "any" rifle.
They are all individuals like people and all have or will take a different load.
Some will NEVER shoot as well as others from the same Smith or manufacturer will, even in the SAME chambering.

As for the poster mentioning this as a LR hunting forum, someone else asked about benchrest shooters and their expectations at 1000 yards and it just so happens there are many of us on here from the Williamsport and Virginia 1000 yard clubs.
That's why we answered the question to us.

Later
DC [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-09-2004: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
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  #154  
Old 03-10-2004, 12:32 AM
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Brent

Apples and footballs!

Chambers are different specs, mag versus single shot, ammo is not loaded for single shot, or climatic conditions etc. No comparison. Tighter tolerances equals less variables and more accuracy with decreasing reliability for combat. Inverse relationship depending on your goal.

I get a real hoot out of all these "tactical guns" marketed for big bucks and by people in many cases would not know a tactical gun if it slapped them in the face. Seen to many of them come to Fort Bragg and other places with the latest "shoot to 2000 yards with 4 MOA elevation" and leave holding their butt in a sling.

Real tactical conditions will break a crow bar if at all possible.

A tactical gun has to be reliable first and reasonably accurate second.

First off I would not want a hunting or tactical gun built to the tight tolerances of gun and ammo of a BR gun. It would not be reliable!!!

A hunting/tactical gun has to be reliable first under all conditions (particularily tactical) which means sand, grit, dirt, mud, rain and snow etc and a man knows he can bet his life the gun will work. That is a very high standard and not many civilian gunsmiths have gone there. We have a lot of people building what they "market" as a tactical gun and that is OK. A local mechanic can build a NASCAR car, but that don't make it so until it runs and wins competitively on the NASCAR circuit.

Having used real tactical guns for quite a few years, I can say I would not choose to take many of those after market tactical guns into combat. They have never been tested to ensure that they will function 120% of the time and deliver "acceptable" accuracy, which is not BR accuracy. They might be great to play with in tactical competitions and such, but do not think I would bet my life on them. I am sure there will be those who say they would bet their life, knowing that they will never have to. Big difference!!!

I would leave that up to proven Army and USMC armorers who have years of experience building real combat tactical rifles that are proven in all conditions, countries, climates and keep on working.

Now before all the guys who have tacticals or build them jump up and whoop and hollar, I will simply state if you have built over 100 rifles used in real tactical combat and have proven to be 100% effective, then you have got something to talk about and my hat is off to you with the deepest respect.

If not, then you build or bought a very nice looking, great shooting gun that is someones copy of a tactical rifle and that is all, but not something I am willing to "play I bet my life on!".

Do not get me wrong, I like them, love to shoot them, but not a real tactical gun for serious life and death use in my opinion without some serious wringing out if that is what you want to do.

BH
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