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Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

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Unread 02-25-2004, 04:38 PM
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

I shoot 3 or 5 shot groups with my hunting rifle. If I am shooting more than one group, at the same distence, with the same load I put 2 targets, one on top of the other and than replace only the top target between groups. Than if I get a very good 3 shot group I can keep it for braging but have the bottem target with many (I have one with 40 holes) shots so I know what my gun and I are realy doing.
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Unread 02-25-2004, 04:47 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 2,539
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Is it the wind, MV ES, or other problems with a rifles ability to hold consistant POI?
I think this really goes to the heart of the matter. If you shoot 10 shots at seperate targets, and POI is within .5 MOA of POA on all of them, verses a rifle that shoots a 1 MOA group on one target at the same POA, which is more important here?

Aplication possibly?
If you're shooting at 500 yards and POI is switching all over the bull at 2 or 3 MOA in both planes, is it wind, a problem with the load or rifle? How well it consistantly groups up closer will help you decide this.

1,2,3,5 or 10 shots? Makes no difference really, so long as you know how consistant the load is, the more you shoot it, the more you'll know.

If barrel fouling, heat build up between groups affect the consistancy of the groups, and I can manage this, I may have a consistant load.

If that means shooting a couple foulers then a 3 shot group each session, then cleaning again, that would suck, but if it was consistant day after day, after day, add 'em up and and you've effectively shot that number of rounds for group IMO.

Statistics are statistics though, and number of shots does factor in. Apples to apples comparison is truely the only way to compare rifles abilities. If one wants to compare their rifles ability to my 3 shot groups, shoot 3 shot groups in your rifle a few times and compare 'em then. To me, the BR guys have plenty of rifles to compare theirs to, to determine their 10 shot grouping ability. If I want to see how mine stacks up, I can shoot 3, 5 or 10 and see.

I like how Michael often shoots his 308 though. 1 shot at each range on a paper plate. If you shoot 1 shot with your bore in the same condition you'll be hunting with it in, and over time you see what consistancy it produces (vertical mainly), you'll be learning what it will really be capable of, as well as what range you can keep them as near your POA as you need to for the particular kill zone size your zeroing in on.

To me, my first shot within a fraction of 1 MOA from POA at various ranges is what I'm after. The number of times I can repeat it might be tested at different ranges, or the same. What's important is, whether or not you find it repeatable and how far POI is from POA measured in MOA on a consistant basis. This gives me an honest number I can use, and count on in the field.

If I shoot 20 rounds and want to further know the consistantcy of a load, I think my time is better spend shooting at 10-20 different ranges with those shots than just one. If I can hold 1 MOA vertical, and 1.5 MOA horizontal, session after session, that's the best I can do at that point. But, I will have learned much more along with it by shooting at various ranges than just setting at 100, or 300 yards testing the load out.

I am quite confident that if I were to shoot up against Michael at various ranges, me with my best load, and Michael with a medioker load, he would out shoot me every damn time, without difficulty.

I do a lot of practicing at a set range for groups, but varying the range enough to feel confident to hit OK at nearly all I shoot at. Michael on the other hand shoots at varying ranges on almost a religious basis, so is much better prepared in a moments notice.

One or two shots is all I'm likely to ever shoot at one animal, and if that don't work, I'd better rethink why I tried to at that range. Matching POI with POA is not only a measure of the rig's capability, but the shooter and his abilities too, which is often much more important at LR.

Some of these guys look at your groups and wonder what it would look like with 5 or 10 shots, most of which never post pix of their targets, but sit back and be critical. You know how well you rig shoots, and I think it shoots great too BTW, so don't let these guys get you down, and keep posting your pix!
Brent Moffitt
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Unread 02-25-2004, 05:31 PM
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Lock Haven P.A.
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Here is a group ........
Boyd Heaton...
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Unread 02-25-2004, 05:51 PM
MAX MAX is offline
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Posts: 263
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

I think JB1000BR and Brent pretty much cover it all. JMO, Target work and BG hunting are NOT the same thing. Accuracy vs. consistancy. Never fired a 10 shot string for a model 94, but I have a #1 that put 22 shots into .77" one day. I called that a good load. Statistics don't lie, but they're not always pertinent.

Boyd, when you gonna work up a "good" load for that beasty? [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
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Unread 02-25-2004, 06:03 PM
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 21
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Ric, hopefully this will help. Most of us have read statements like very good factory rifle shoots .5" MOA(or custom rifle shoots .1). This statement suggests that the person,rifle,caliber and all factors impacting accuracy are such that each and every time this rifle is shot the same result happens, a .5" group.

The purpose of these type statements is to indicate rifle accuracy each and every time we shoot over a long period of time and with conditions remaining the same. We know that condition may not remain the same over a relatively short period of time when we are shooting and certainly, they do not over longer periods of time.

Many folks do a lot of things to try and get tiny groups over long periods but it is not possible to control for every factor impacting accuracy. Thus, when groups are fired, there size will differ. If we shoot three groups of .25, .5 and .75, then the average is .5 (adding and dividing by three). This average is correct; to pick one group and say a rifle shoots .25 (or .75) does not represent reality. However, this is a bad example because more groups are needed to get a true estimate of accuracy.

A realistic accuracy of a rifle is estimated shooting many, many groups, say at least twenty-nine and taking the average. Or as some have suggested each time you shoot place a clean target over the "dirty" target you shot yesterday (or last week). Shoot many times, on different days, with a clean target over the same dirty target. Then measure the group on the dirty target. Or, measure each group on the clean targets, add them and divide by the number of groups and you will get a measure close to the group size of the dirty target. Either approach will give a realistic measure of the accuracy of your rifle.

Also, we would like to have the least spread (or variance or standard deviation)between the smallest and largest groups. To do this, shooters do all kinds of things, custom work, custom guns, neck size, change AOL, etc. If we could remove all the factors impacting group size, the one-hole group happens each and every time we shoot.

Finally, what about the number of shots in each group, some say three, some say five, others more. The number of shot fired in each standard group does not matter. What counts is the number of groups used to compute the average, the larger, the better.

Hope all of this makes sense and that I have not just muddy the water. If I have forgotten or wrong in this disccusion, I hope someone corrects me.

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Unread 02-25-2004, 06:24 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2002
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Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Boyd, ya need to work on that a bit... you completely missed the dot! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Nice group though! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
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Unread 02-25-2004, 07:04 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: in front of my computer
Posts: 446
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

I do believe my Factory Coyote in 270 WSM will keep up with that gun of yours at 500 yrds. I have 1000 yrd targets where 3 shots are with in 4 inches of each other. I'd just have to go down stairs and sort threw my Targets.
I'm back I can take a pic of a 3 shot group in 3.6 inches AT 1000 yrds with my 270 WSM Factory rifle. Now the 10 shot group on that target Whelll!!!!
[img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] Lets just say I like my RODGER built FLAT Bottom gun better for 1000 yrd shootin. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Just to throw in alittle EGO!
[img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[ 02-25-2004: Message edited by: baldeagle713 ]
The one with the fancy stool.
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