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Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

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Unread 02-25-2004, 10:22 AM
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Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

Been thinking... actually churning my guts...

I actually hate to be the one to bring this up because it was my groups I posted... I actually wish it were someone elses groups... I'm sure at some point this happened to someone else and I should have mentioned it then...

I'm deperately trying to keep from starting a ******* match but it affects the whole board and in fact has chased some people from it. and turned a bunch of others off.. But I am the kinda guy to speak my mind and say what has to be said... that's just me... but hey we all can't be politically correct...

when guys post groups..

2 shots
3 shots
5 shots
10 shots

which is better? Which proves more? Which means you're a good shot or the rifle is just that good? Which proves both?

Why don't 3 or 5 shot groups get respect?

Why do 10 shots = a better group? Does it prove that that 10 shot rifle is better? Or does it prove the shooter is better? Really ??

How many guys can take their LR hunting rifle. ( after all this is the LR hunting board ) and put 1 shot within inches of their point of aim without a sighter? Beyond 500 yards...? Now be honest...

BR shooters how many sighters do you fire before you start shooting your groups? 2,3,4 10 , 15 ?? I know for a fact most of you shoot SEVERAL! How many have hit your point of aim within inches the first or second round? Again, be honest.

Just questions I would like to have answered... I also know more here would like to hear it too.. but I respect their not wanting to make waves.. me I'm just direct I guess..

If you flame me.. so be it...
I don't in any way mean any disrespect.. just some trends I have noticed over the past few months...That not only affected me.. but more than you realize...

give credit where credit is due or establish criteria for rifle shooter perfromance...

As I mentioned... my get-together is..

the truth, demistify and make you honest! Or just show up and share and learn.. that's waht I'm gonna do!
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Unread 02-25-2004, 10:36 AM
Gold Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 806
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

That's why one of our local LR/Tactical (300/600yds) matches has stages for 'cold bore zero' at the start of the match. You'd be surprised how much that humbles the guys (myself included) who normally shoot good groups.

That being said, most of my LR hunting is varmints, so being able to *consistently* put round after round into the same general vincinity is arguably more important than the first shot being spot on. Cold bore zero is nice, but 10 shot groups are more indicative of what I expect out of my guns, w/ me behind the trigger. To each their own.


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Unread 02-25-2004, 11:06 AM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1,307
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

I always like to see more shots in a little hole, but the only time 10 shots matter is in 1K BR and point blank BR, and varmint hunting. For a tactical rig, it is the first three that matter the most, maybe the first 5. THere is no reason to run 10 shots or more for group unless it is a varmint gun or a BR gun--why waste the barrel life?

with a heavy barreled gun i like 5 shots, sporter i like 3.

Ric you have a nice 3 shot group--what also matters is consistancy. If you like 3 instead of 5 then shoot several 3 shot groups and post them--i bet that gun is consistant as well.

you are concerned with the consistancy of the first few shots--that is what matters to you (and most others in most situations) who cares where shots 8-17 go (i usu shoot 7 siters in 1k comp) you dont, and i dont either with my 308--now with my BR gun, that is all that matters--There i dont care much where my CBS goes.

You are not trying to compete with a 1k br gun, or you would be shooting at 1K

those who like the 10 shot groups are not trying to compete with your tactical rig, so they dont shoot 3 or 5 shot groups at 770yds.

You are posting because you are happy with your groups--keep posting. When i get a chance to shoot my 308 some more, maybe i will have a few pics to post.

different disciplines need different requirements--I dont look down on your 3 shot 4.5" group at 770 just because i fired a 4" 5 shot group at 1022 (practice at williamsport) with my old 30 goodling. they are meant for different things. Even then i didnt shoot 10 shots, but i was just testing the load at match temp, no need for 5 more.

BTW was your CBS included in that group??

Keep posting pics...I will [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]--dont let attitude collision keep you from posting [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Hopefully my new 6.5 (when its together) will give me some targets to post [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Check it Out!!--> Shoot the Smack The Smiley Match...and help AmericanSnipers.org
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Unread 02-25-2004, 11:16 AM
Silver Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Stamford NY
Posts: 160
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..


Is say that 10 shots is the best way to see you can shoot as the wind is usally changes a few times before you get all those rounds off, 3 and 5 shot groups is to test the rifle, when your rifle shoots good groups with 3 it usally throws good groups with 5, as for hittin after 500 yards, the first time i ever shot that range, I put three shots in to a 4" bull at 500 yards, then i started thinkin about the wind and got all #%$*ed up and havent hit the bull on a cold shot since then.
Good shootin,

[ 02-25-2004: Message edited by: Brian Rybicky ]
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Unread 02-25-2004, 03:59 PM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 82
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

This will be my first post here in a long time but it is a topic I really enjoy discussing.

First let me say this is only in the context of hunting. Benchrest games have rules that dictate how many shot per group so if you are interested in those games you probably know exactly how many shots per group to use to evaluate your system (rifle, optic, ammo, and shooter). For example if your game requires 10 shot groups you would be fooling your self to only shoot 3 shot groups.

Second I am thinking only of a way to evaluate my particular system and determine how good or bad I think it is functioning. I am assuming this is what we are discussing here is how to evaluate our own system (rifle, ammo, optic, and shooter).

In this context I don’t like to think in terms of groups but in terms of hitting or missing a target of some predetermined size at a predetermined range. Example would be a 5” circle at 500yds.

I figure if my system can hit a 2” spot 10 times in a row at 200 yds this is very good performance. My current barrel on my 22-243 did this when I tested it right after installation. The target was a 2” target spot and all 10 shots were in the orange. The “group” was right at 1.5”.

If I had been shooting 3 shot groups I had three shots in a row that were slightly under 0.250”. If this was all I was doing I might have gotten a skewed belief that my system was capable of hitting a quarter inch target at 200yds every time when in fact it is not.

With a hunting rifle what I want to know is whether or not I can hit a target of a certain size at a certain range with any degree of reliability. To often I have seen guys at the range that shoot a really small group and then convinced themselves that this performance was the standard they should expect from their system. The best three shot group from a system is not any predictor of future performance.

Groups are useful in the initial testing of a system because they remove the influence of zero but when the finale result is a system for hunting we have to include our zero because more shots are missed at long range because of an improper zero than any from an inaccurate rifle.

I believe one 10 shot group is more honest than 4 three shot groups or 2 five shot groups. If you are worried about barrel heat just use the same amount of time on your 10 shot no matter how you combine them.
John Burns
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Unread 02-25-2004, 04:08 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 234
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..


I have seen two recent posts of groups within the last few days. Both of them had somewhat negative posts directed at them. It doesn't suprise me that more people don't post groups.

I do know that a three shot group will never get smaller by firing 7 more to go with it. So what do these guys want? You related the circumstances related to that group and to me it is what it is. Hunting is my thing. So to me a first shot kill is far more valuable than a group. With that said.

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Unread 02-25-2004, 04:24 PM
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Casper Wy
Posts: 1,387
Re: Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

I tend to give maltiple groups on the same page more respect irregardless of # of shots fired.Case in point I had a VLE Ruger in 308 that printed one sweet 5 shot group.The problem was it averaged over an inch @ 100.
This target does not have spectacular groups but is uniform enough to take to a prairie dog town and consistant wack dogs to 300 yards.The shots where taken off the bipods on the hood of the truck,the clip(19 rounds) was MTed in short order at random dots
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." -Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
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