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Guys, you are forgetting that Hodgdens sells smokeless powder that would work, they are also manufacturing Pyrodex and 777 because that pressure level is what many existing muzzleloaders were designed for. Safety is it, the industry has to consider that there are some incredibly poorly designed in-lines out there from the past and they cannot take the chance of some guy loading one of those rifles with smokeless. Totally different pressures involved. The muzzleloading industry does not support smokeless, that is a hard fact.
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The "muzzleloading industry" supports no standards at all that I can discern, and never has. Just what is the proper "land to land" dimension of a ".50 caliber"? No wonder people are confused: a T7 pellet or Pyrodex pellet is touted as a "50 grain equivalent." Yet, just because a rifle is allowed by the manufacturer to be shot with 150 grains of pellets does not mean it is wise (or allowed) to use 150 grains of loose powder. If the muzzleloading industry has "standards" of any sort, just what are they?
The Hodgdon position is obvious, and understandable-- as the majority of the tonnage of powder sold has long been bp subs, and an even higher percentage of their profits. The virtual monopoly they have in BP subs is not the case in the general smokeless market. They never were a smokeless powder maker until they bought IMR (with Pyrodex money), moreso an importer of Australian surplus military powders, still selling ADI manufactured product as the majority of their line.
The Toby timeline shows that his purported "problem" happened nearly two years ago. He laughed about it. His position on smokeless changed far later, ONLY after Henry Ball (10ML patent holder) and Savage CEO Ron Coburn both fired him, for a lot of unsavory reasons. ONLY after his dismisal did he begin to dismiss the Savage-- NOT when his little unwitnessed event happened.
As for a "pressure level" that muzzleloaders are designed for, in no possible way is it reasonable to compare a cheap, 700kp/cm2 proofed, extruded Spanish barrel to T/C or Knight product. Much less 100% proof-tested Savage 10ML-II 4140C or 416SS barrel. What manufacturer has designed all their guns specifically for Triple 7?
Now in its 6th year of consecutive production, the Savage 10ML series can only be considered old, proven technology. It existed long before the first Triple 7 pellet was sold.
If there were issues, you can believe that there is no way Del Ramsey would pull the trigger on one, Savage CEO Ron Coburn, etc., etc., nor would the very conservative Savage Arms Co. continue to make it. It is as old as shooting a plastic wad out of a shotgun-- smokeless powder, wad / sabot, projectile / projectiles . . . fired by a 209 primer.
Just old news-- take a gun proven to withstand the abuse of 129,000 PSI peak pressures, give it a 300% safety factor, and allow NO loads that breech 40,000 PSI.
That's all the 10ML-II is-- simple, conservative, and safe. I put 4000 rounds though one specific gun, and had it gone over from bow to stern. It still was / is within all new factory specs; the barrel is indistinguishable from a new barrel and resides right here.
Shooting a 10ML-II is safe-- proven again and again by those who shoot out their 1360 grain ramrods year after year. Would you shoot a cleaning rod out of your .30-06 or 20 ga.? Yet, that is the negligence and abuse the 10ML-II sees again and again. WITHOUT PROBLEMS OR INJURIES!
Of course it is the wave of the future-- several bullet makers, powder companies, and sabot manufacturers all see it that way.
Safety is a very good reason to embrace the 10ML-II, not shy away from it. Safety is EXACTLY why Henry and Bill Ball designed it in the beginning.
It is an overbuilt gun from a gun designer who always errs on the side of caution and safety, built by a SAAMI American gunmaker that does the same, with 100% proof-testing that no other frontloader maker bothers to do.
You can't close the bolt if the breechplug is out of battery, much less fire it. In safety-off position, it will not discharge from a 20 ft. drop. Consider reloading 12,000 PSI loads for a paper thin 12 ga. shotgun-- then consider 35,000 PSI handloads in a rifle that can take 129,000 PSI.
You can do no better from the designed-in safety of the Savage 10ML-II.
You guys are very defensive of 'something", calm down, things will go where they will go. I just talked with another industry leader and he said what Tony said, but you guys go enjoy your toys.
With all due respect, I get tired of hearing Savage owners blowing their horn and telling everyone that smokeless is the only way to go. Everyone has his choice, go play and have fun, let it be. A guy I know was recently buying an inline. He picked one out, had it on the counter. A guy he did not know told him he was making a mistake, talked him into a Savage. Drove two hours back to his home and set it on the bench. Then he read the instructions and he found out he needed a powder scale. Did not have one, did not want one. Said to hell with this, preferred to simply drop a couple or three pellets. Drove two hours back the next a.m. and swapped for his original choice. Show you that smokeless is not for everybody. His daughter shot a fine antelope with the inline so he is very happy.
Sometimes I wonder if the guys who bought into the Savage rifle are a bit insecure that their toys are really as good as they hoped. New black powder substitutes make cleaning simple. Matter of fact all we need to do is run a patch soaked in moisture displacing oil down the bore (Knight Oil) and rust is not going to happen. No boiling water, not scrubbing, just fill the residue with oil and no rust. Tony figured that one out a long time ago, thats all we do when we are on traveling hunts. I have left rifles in that condition for several weeks with absolutely no rust.
Interesting reading, appreciate all the neat info you guys are sharing.
I only get defensive when someone declares the Savage unsafe, probably the same way you might is someone wrote that Long Range Hunting was unethical [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
IMO, your friend did NOT properly read the Savage instruction book! It specifically states that you can use dippers for measuring the powder, something that I had done for years.
Certainly for BEST accuracy any powder should be weighed to ensure consistency whether smokeless or BP substitute.
When I bought my first reloading press and dies for a 30-06 it came with Lee Dippers and I used them until I wanted better accuracy.
Your Friend did NOT need to return the Savage, as he could use BP or ANY sub that he wanted without weighing. BUT, by returning the Savage he has given up the ability to shoot smokeless, which IMO is like buying a pickup truck with "Two Wheel Drive"! It still drives but it sure make going off road tough [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
I certainly don't claim that the Savage is the ONLY way to go, but it is a pretty darn good way [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
ian m, you sound like someone who's on the defensive, making unsupported claims and talking with someone who obviouslly has money at stake. i have an original ml-I that has have alot thru it-but no b/p substitutes, only smokeless.
that was in early 2000 that gun still shoots sub moa with the loads it likes. as far as smokeless being the same as b/p substitutes. they dont even come close to the effeciency of smokeless. we are consistently shooting 250 grain bullets to 2400-2700 fps. my custom ruger no.1 in .45 cal is shooting the .40 cal. 200 grain sst at 2800 fps at 1 1/4" at 100 yards. yes i wanted centerfire capabilty because i live in a shotgun or muzzleloader only state. thats what i have with the savage. for the money why would you short yourself, i can still hunt with it in a no-smokeless state. dont buy into shortcomings but more versatilty.
When I look at that picture I do not see a muzzleloader as such. No ramrod guides, no ignition designed by the original factory to be used for muzzleloading. You can put little teeny chunks of C4 down from the muzzle and call something a muzzleloader, but... Might be beating the system in your state, enjoy every minute. I would love to shoot that rifle, would be interesting to shoot out to its max effective range. I enjoy the challenge of shooting in wind and no doubt wind would be a big factor out where that rig will launch bullets to. There are some amazing bullet designs on at least two drawing boards that would be very interesting in that rifle - just hope they make it to market. Will put a grin on your face.
Those velocities and accuracy are impressive, but they are not where the muzzleloading industry intends to keep the sport (as I am told by those nasty guys who design Omegas etc. and actually make money from them). I keep remembering what happened in Colorado - still hasn't been fixed [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
You guys seem to think I have a problem with smokeless - fact is I do not. Play with the toys, enjoy every minute out there. I was offered a Savage back when the first ones were being shipped to writers, was up to my ears in other stuff at the time and decided to wait a bit and see where it went. Some stuff took place I did not agree with so I just never followed up on the rifle. Several friends have them, I can shoot them or borrow one in a heartbeat. Have helped guys get them shooting, just got enough on my plate that messing with smokeless is not very high right now. I try to keep abreast of where muzzleloading is at, right now there are enough new in-lines to work with, scopes and bullet developements that I am about busy enough.
Next big project for me is to determine actual leads required on moving targets. Will use two loads, two bullet weights in fifty yard increments at known velocities with my brand new electronic moving target system. Going to be interesting and will burn a bunch of powder (won't go into what powder, kind of a sensitive area here all of a sudden [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ). Rifles will probably be an old Knight Wolverine and an old Encore that has been shot so much I have about worn out its second trigger system. Scopes will be interesting, mildot for sure. I go through cases of powder when I get into this kind of thing, lots of fun for my buds who get to help out. Some of you guys are obviously muzzleloader fanatics, wish you were available to help.
Last project I did was on drop and drift, shot so much one of my buds took five raps on the forehead in one day. He had blood dripping off his chin, had to quit shooting because his groups were opening up a bunch. We never told him about all the dried blood on his face, when we got back to town he went into a 7-11 and the clerk's eyes nearly bugged out when she saw his face. I photograph every group with digital so have nice records of all that shooting, plus keep data sheets during the shoot. We are talking a lot of white smoke but it is fun and keeps me off the streets.
Not trying to get anyone's goat here, interesting stuff and I enjoy the opportunity to learn what others are doing. Matter of fact we kind of sidetracked away from the original question and that pees Mr. Len off so I am out of here this time.