Originally Posted by britz
ya I know I said I'd stay out, but I cant resist... lol
just some food for thought for those who translate the bible literally...
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD" . from Deuteronomy.
This book is messed up talking about stoning unfaithful women... do you really think it is the way of God to do these things??
According to the Catholic faith... There are 7 commandments that have to do with treating other people right... only 3 about worshiping the Lord... Seems to me God puts great importance on works.
I know this is basically an argument about who has the right religion... one that no one will ever convince the other is wrong... but it can be stimulating and even fun lol!
Regarding following the old testament laws today:
What is so NEW about the New Testament - ChristianAnswers.Net
What does the Bible say about the Old Testament Law?
We need to understand the context in which these laws were given. The Israelites were a very rough, rebellious bunch of slaves coming out of Egypt. They already, since the exodus, had a long history of unfaithfullness to God, who had provided for their needs and demonstrated time and again his miraculous power to save them (parting of the Red Sea, water from the rock, manna from heaven, etc, etc.), yet they remained unbelievably rebellious in the light of God's saving power and grace. Sound familiar?
God gave them, through Moses, all of these laws for them to realize how serious the offenses they were committing were. Romans 3:20 states: "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become concious or sin."
God gave the amazingly rebellious Israelites the law so that they would become more concious or their sin and understand how serious it was too God. Even with this from the time law was given until the time of Christ, many Israelites, instead of keeping with the spirit of the law, found every possible 'loophole' and still lived sinful lives. God then saw that this plan to save the world through his chosen people wasn't working and sent his son Jesus, to be the ultimate and final sacrifice for sins and sent his disciples out into the world to bring the world to him (Great Commission).
In the process God established a new covenent (New Testament) based on love, faith and grace and through it establishing a much higher standard than a bunch of laws--the standard of the attitude of the heart towards God and His will. His will being that we obey him because we love him and are thankful for sacrificing his Son Jesus, ask forgiveness for our sins, accept him as Lord and Saviour of our lives and truly endeavor to live for him. It is because of that want to keep his laws in our hearts. Keeping the spirit of the law...not the letter of the law.
You will see many clear exceptions throughout the Bible to the general laws of the Old Testament even within the Old Testament. Deuteronomy 23:1 deals with folks that had cut off private parts due to pagan/idol worship practices, yet the very first recorded non-jew convert in the New Testament was the Ethiopian Eunach. God is concerned about our hearts. These all these laws were for a specific set of people in a specific situation.
Jesus himself tells how he came to fufill all the law in Matt 5:17 with the clear intent when taken in proper context again, that he gives it it's full meaning, emphasizing commitment to the spirit of the law rather than mere external acknowledgement and obedicance. Jesus warned the Pharisees (and the jews that followed them) again and again and does it again in this passage about the sham of keepingn laws externally, to gain merti before God, while breaking them inwardly and against following the letter of the law (WORKS as has been discussed before) while ignoring its spirit. Jesus here clearly repudiates the Pharisees interpretation of the Law and their view of righteousness by works--still a very prevalent thought today. We cannot earn salvation...it is the work of God, the gift of God that no one can boast.
One study bible (The Apologetics Study Bible) has this commentary on Deuteronomy 23: 1 and 2
"23:1 This apparent discrimination is based on the
principle that a physical defect is analogous to spiritual
imperfection (cp. Lv 21:16-23). The defect, in this in-
stance, has to do with reproductive capacity, the lack
of which was considered to be a curse. Jesus spoke of
"eunuchs who have made themselves that way because
of the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 19:12), removing the
traditional religious stigma from those who lack re-
productive capability or who refrain from utilizing it
(depending on whether or not one takes His expression
in the literal sense). Christianity's first recorded non-
Jewish convert was such a person (Ac 8:26-38).
23:2 The exclusion of an illegitimate child from the
assembly is related to the previous instructions having to
do with irregular sexual matters. The denial of full
fellowship has nothing to do with the personal spirituality
of the individual; it is the community as a whole that
is in view. The prohibition illustrates the uncompromising
standards of the Lord affecting how, and under what
conditions, persons may enter His presence.
Physical traits reflecting what is normal and proper are
symbolic of the required spiritual state."
In the context of what God was dealing with with the Israelites at that time, this was the tact He apparently felt necessary to take regarding this situation.
The 'assembly' is talking about coming into the temple itself and how holy a place and how Holy God was and how serious sin is to him. We need to be very careful lifting passages like this to make our point one way or the other without tremendous study to understand the context. The Bible is all at once simple in it's message of hope and redemption, yet very complex in many passages, made more so for us that do not understand Jewish history or culture as well as we might.
Here's an article from answersingenesis.org regarding one time Jesus himself took exception to the law. You will see that Christ is much more concerned aobut someone's heart than he is about the following of the external law--a concept that many Israelites never seemed to get.
Reading through the Old Testament, you end up feeling sorry for God in a way with what he had to put up with the people he created to commune with him, especially his chosen people, the Israelites.
If you have kids at home that cause you grief due to their rebelliousness when you only have the best intentions for them, knowing what is right for them and providing them the best you can so they can make those right choices...you might just start to get a feel for the tip of the iceberg of how God might have felt then...and now.
But we have unconditional patient love for our children, wanting them to come back into full fellowship with us after something has gone wrong, right? Hmm...I wonder where that came from?
Doesn’t Jesus contradict Old Testament teachings by not stoning the adulteress, which was commanded?
by Roger Patterson, AiG–U.S.
November 24, 2008
A web-only series tackling the supposed contradictions in God’s Word
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not commit adultery.
The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.
Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?”
This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear. So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.
One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.
In the passage referred to, a woman is brought to Jesus by the religious leaders who were interested in trapping Him in a difficult situation. Many apparent witnesses have been found to condemn this woman who has been caught in the very act of adultery. According to the laws given to Moses and laid out in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, adultery was a sin punishable by death—for the man and the woman! It is interesting to note that only the woman was brought before Jesus. This exposes the motives of the religious leaders. They were not interested in justice, but in accusing Jesus so they might discredit His authority.
One of the requirements of the administration of justice laid out in the Mosaic Law was that there must be agreement between two or three witnesses (Deuteronomy 17:6
) to condemn the accused. Jesus also faced this same standard in the trial that was held before Caiaphas (Matthew 26:57–60
). When the witnesses were not in agreement, they were dismissed until two that were in agreement could be found.
After the leaders present the accused woman to Jesus, He stoops and writes something on the ground, ignoring the leaders. Though Scripture does not record what He wrote, some have speculated it was the Ten Commandments. Regardless, the leaders were convicted of their own sinfulness when Jesus asked them to cast the first stone. As they walk away one by one, the woman is left standing alone. With no witnesses to accuse her, Jesus is justified in letting her go. He is not violating the Mosaic Law referenced by the Jewish leaders as there are no witnesses to provide testimony to condemn her.
Jesus exercises grace in His treatment of the woman without violating the letter of the Law. As God in the flesh, Jesus also has the authority to forgive sins (Matthew 9:6
). It is clear from the text and a proper understanding of the application of Mosaic Law that the contradiction is apparent, and not real.
Regarding some other supposed 'contradictions', please see:
Get Answers - Answers in Genesis
Here's an article on Jesus and the infallibility of scripture:
Jesus Christ on the infallibility of Scripture
Jesus clearly believed the old testament was historical fact.
Getting into the Catholic faith? Are Catholics Christian?
Are Catholics Christian?Question:
Are Catholics Christians? If not, why? This is not a negative question. I desire to honestly know if Catholics are considered to be part of the Christian faith.
This is a most important question anybody can ask. Am I a Christian? Or am I a Christian in name only? Do I have a living relationship with Christ?
Well then, who has the right to call himself Christian? Like the Jews of old, people still fool themselves in thinking that they are right with God because of some ritual (like circumcision or baptism) or because of their heritage ("I was born into a Christian family and attend a Christian church").
According to the Bible, a true Christian is chosen by God before the foundation of the world, redeemed and forgiven by the blood of Christ, illuminated by the Spirit, knows and obeys the truth of the Gospel. A Christian is someone who trusts in Christ for his salvation, and gives all praise to God for His grace. (Please read Ephesians 1:3-13).
Does a Roman Catholic fit this description? Superficially he does. He believes in Christ and speaks about the grace of God. But if he follows the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, regretfully I must say that he does not really believe in Christ nor does he know the grace of God
. Please allow me to explain.
The Gospel teaches that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28). God regards a person just and righteous who trusts wholeheartedly in Jesus, and who does not attempt to win God's favour by his imperfect obedience of the Law. Sadly, Roman theology has rejected God's way of salvation. To faith, Rome adds a set of deeds (many of which are human inventions) and curses anyone who dares to completely trust in Christ alone for salvation. 'If anyone says that the faith that justifies is nothing else but trust in the divine mercy, which pardons sins because of Christ, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified, let him be anathema.' (Council of Trent, session 6, cannon 12).
We firmly believe that our sins are pardoned because of the sacrifice of Christ alone. Rome would have us perform acts of penance and suffer in purgatory to expiate our sins. The Bible proclaims Christ, the Priest who offered himself once for all. Rome would have us apply to her priests who daily offer their sacrifices on the altar. The Bible proclaims Christ as the only Mediator, Rome would have us apply to other mediators, like Mary, the saints and the church.
Again, we assert that we are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24). The Bible clearly defines what grace is: "to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt" (Romans 4:4) Grace is unmerited favour, as opposed to the merit of works. Rome outwardly teaches that we are justified by grace. However the "grace" of Catholicism is a very strange species. The Catholic Church states that "we can then merit for ourselves...the graces needed...for the attainment of eternal life" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2010). To merit grace
is a contradiction in terms. Rome would not allow you to receive the gift of salvation with a grateful heart, but would have you work like a slave to merit it.
We are forced to conclude that the message of Rome is a different gospel. It is a false
gospel. I say this with much sadness and concern for the multitudes of Catholics who blindly follow this false system. I must warn every Catholic that Christ is of no avail to you unless you relinquish any confidence in yourself and your works, and in every other creature. Faith must be in Christ - alone!
Having said that, I gladly add the following caveat. There may be some nominal Catholics who, either out of ignorance or willful rejection of Catholic doctrine, truly trust in Christ alone for their salvation. They are Christians and really belong to God.
The book of Revelation describes a deceptive and false religious system named Babylon. It is not my intention here to discuss the exact nature of this Babylon - the principle remains the same. Some Christians are trapped inside this deceptive system and God gives them a specific command: "Come out of her, my people,
that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4). Thank God that even in Babylon, God has His people. If you are a Christian entrapped in the false religious system of Rome, hear God's calling and come out of her. You will experience liberty and life like never before.
See: Bible and Theology Answers - ChristianAnswers.Net