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History's Sniper show

 
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  #8  
Old 12-22-2009, 03:15 PM
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Re: History's Sniper show

I never got a chance to watch the History channel version, but I know the Canadian sniper through work. (He's now in law enforcement). I know him to be a very humble guy and you have to press him to get to talk to much about what he did overseas. They made a pact and won't even confirm how many kills they got in that tour. You have remember as well a few days earlier a member of the group made a confirmed 2300M shot so it wasn't total guess work to get out to 2400M. They made a lot of engagements under some heavy heavy fire to help out some severely pinned down members of the 101st

I think any shots at those distances are a combination of skill, equipment and luck. Wasn't it Hathcock who preached sometimes it's a little bit of SWAG? 1 shot was a miss, quick re-calc and next shot hit the target in the back-pack ripping it off (pretty dam close) and third did the job. Everyone on this board I'm sure could appreciate that the mildest gust of wind down range as you break the shot could cause a miss.

As far as most of the competitions go there are lots of factors and the scores are usually so close that it may have come down to one shot. Having competed against snipers from all through NATO it usually comes down to who gets back to barracks the earliest and isn't as hung over as the others on as many days. Talking to the Marines from the last one I was at they pointed out that home field advantage can sure help. Not only do the bosses (wives and superiors) keep you on a tight leash at home but shooting so much on the ranges and knowing the terrain sure helps. Basically the top guys from each country are extremely close and anyone would be hard pressed to say who is the best......although those marines sure knew their stuff inside and out.
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  #9  
Old 12-22-2009, 04:35 PM
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Re: History's Sniper show

I for one was impressed with most of the shots presented by the show. They guy in Iraq shooting running targets w/ a 308 was impressive to say the least. To be able to react correctly that fast on shots -wow. The canadian sniper did fill in some blanks. I was always lead to believe that it was all calculated and a first shot hit. but still... that is some pretty darn good shooting! Mcmillin did a terrible job trying to duplicate the shot. Why in the world didn't he dial in to get close! He simply maxed out his scope and tried to see where it hit from 1.5 miles away... classic hollywood.
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  #10  
Old 12-22-2009, 04:49 PM
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Re: History's Sniper show

I thought it was an interesting watch, but I thought they could have done better.


I was dissapointed by the "short clips" they made of people dressed in era clothing wandering through the woods. For crying out loud, you're the History Channel! Go dig out some actual footage. Not to mention the whole time they were talking about the M40, they showed some guy wandering around with a bone stock Savage 110.
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  #11  
Old 12-22-2009, 06:42 PM
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Re: History's Sniper show

Quote:
all those famed shots were more of flukes than of skill
The people who make these shots have a base of skills that provides the basis for staying alive while shooting other people at long range. Combat is not getting up for a warm bed and clean sheets with a perfectly zeroed benchrest rilfe and going out for a few hours and then when you get tired going back home and having a warm bowl of chili and a beer or if you happen to bang your rifle hard, stopping of at the range to check your zero.

A good combat sniper makes do with what he has and he does not have the luxury of going to zero his scope every time a flea lands on his barrel. My snipers were supposed to go and have the armorer pull PM on their rifles and scope and rezero once a month but in reality we ran so many missions back to back that they often went two or three month of full combat without getting a chance to check their zero. This is slogging through rice paddies falling down jungle hills and laying in rain. Lones Wigger and Virgil Umphenour regularly threatened to have me court martialed if I did not let my snipers come in once a month. You can google up both of these people if you wish. You can also google a pdf document call "Americal Snipers in Vietnam"

If a sniper needs to make a shot beyond the capability of his scope what should he do? Sit down and say too bad and give it up like all of you would or should he run the dial to the top and then try to use his knowledge and skill to compensate for lack of equipment and send a round downrange as best he can figure it out and if he misses just give it some more elevation and try again. Maybe if his PDA battery is dead or if his Kestrel 3500 will not read the humidty he should just call his mama and say he'll be home for dinner.

Here is an excerpt of the document and this guy is using a M21 with a 3X9 BDC type scope (Leatherwood ART) in a 1 inch tube. Do the math on the drops need ed for a 308 and see if any 1 inch tube scope in the world has enough elevation to get to 1600 meters. These are meters not yards so do the math. Then remember my sniper beat that shot by several hundred meters and it was witnessed by quite a few people many of whom are still living and I am in contact with them. The only way these shots get made is the guy dials to the top and then holds over some more.

And for all of you guys who kneel and worship at the alter of bullet expansion I will just remind you that these are FMJs.

Ok, I have ranted and raved and now I feel better.

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  #12  
Old 12-22-2009, 07:05 PM
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Re: History's Sniper show

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobob View Post
The people who make these shots have a base of skills that provides the basis for staying alive while shooting other people at long range. Combat is not getting up for a warm bed and clean sheets with a perfectly zeroed benchrest rilfe and going out for a few hours and then when you get tired going back home and having a warm bowl of chili and a beer or if you happen to bang your rifle hard, stopping of at the range to check your zero.

A good combat sniper makes do with what he has and he does not have the luxury of going to zero his scope every time a flea lands on his barrel. My snipers were supposed to go and have the armorer pull PM on their rifles and scope and rezero once a month but in reality we ran so many missions back to back that they often went two or three month of full combat without getting a chance to check their zero. This is slogging through rice paddies falling down jungle hills and laying in rain. Lones Wigger and Virgil Umphenour regularly threatened to have me court martialed if I did not let my snipers come in once a month. You can google up both of these people if you wish. You can also google a pdf document call "Americal Snipers in Vietnam"

If a sniper needs to make a shot beyond the capability of his scope what should he do? Sit down and say too bad and give it up like all of you would or should he run the dial to the top and then try to use his knowledge and skill to compensate for lack of equipment and send a round downrange as best he can figure it out and if he misses just give it some more elevation and try again. Maybe if his PDA battery is dead or if his Kestrel 3500 will not read the humidty he should just call his mama and say he'll be home for dinner.

Here is an excerpt of the document and this guy is using a M21 with a 3X9 BDC type scope (Leatherwood ART) in a 1 inch tube. Do the math on the drops need ed for a 308 and see if any 1 inch tube scope in the world has enough elevation to get to 1600 meters. These are meters not yards so do the math. Then remember my sniper beat that shot by several hundred meters and it was witnessed by quite a few people many of whom are still living and I am in contact with them. The only way these shots get made is the guy dials to the top and then holds over some more.

And for all of you guys who kneel and worship at the alter of bullet expansion I will just remind you that these are FMJs.

Ok, I have ranted and raved and now I feel better.




Jim,

Again, I never said anything about the service or the job. I merely stated that the shots were not as much skill as once was thought. They were more along the lines of lucky shots admitted by some who took them. That just detracts from the legend of the "sniper" as a whole.

But on the other hand, an ounce of luck is harder to get than an ounce of skill!
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  #13  
Old 12-22-2009, 07:53 PM
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Re: History's Sniper show

I didn't see the show, but from the descriptions provided, I think it would be fair to say it took a lot of skill to be in a position to take advantage of the measure of luck that contributed to these ultra long range kills. Skill got them in the vicinity. Luck, or lack thereof for the bad guys, made the difference between close & lethal.

I know I wouldn't dilly dally about if one of these guys was shooting at me. I'm sure they'd like to connect on the first shot for a variety of both professional and self-survival reasons. But I'm pretty sure the high-fives follow any kill at these extended ranges, no matter the 1st shot or the 5th. After firing several shots, hit or miss, I'd think the wiser move would be to relocate before the enemy made my location and extracted some revenge.
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  #14  
Old 12-22-2009, 08:02 PM
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Posts: 164
Re: History's Sniper show

It was put to me like this once.

"Snipers are like race car drivers. They can drive the car with exceptional skill, pushing it to it's very limts. Just don't ask them to change the oil."

I think the thing that is being missed is that in combat the shot is a very small portion of the event. Everything up to, around during and after also makes sniping in a combat zone so much more different. In that context to me there is nothing lacking in the shots.

Last edited by CapDog; 12-22-2009 at 08:13 PM.
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