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History's Sniper show

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  #78  
Unread 01-05-2010, 11:55 PM
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Re: History's Sniper show

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobob View Post
Find where I said that and post it up in quotes. Or at least have the courage and integrity to edit your post to the point that it is truthful.
I don't need to. I stated very clearly that the sniper did an admirable job of preparing for the shot to the best of his ability, but that some circumstances of the shot were beyond his ability to fully compensate for. He calmly and professionally responded to the first miss to the best of his ability and dispatched said bad guy.

You responded reflexively and unprofessionally as if I'd spat on every sniper who ever served this country. Which is about as far from the truth as possible.

Chance, luck, whatever you want to call it, the fact remains that at the fringes of performance the sniper cannot fully control and account for every variable. As I've stated before but you seem too dense to understand, this is not a knock on the sniper's training or skill but a simple fact of science and physics. This is why we don't have snipers notching kills at 2000m with the .308.

I think this all boils down to an emotional disagreement on the definition of "luck". I'm not interpreting a "lucky shot" as having ZERO input by the shooter...what is that, blindly pointing a weapon and pointing the trigger?? I'm calling a "lucky shot" one which is beyond the inherent precision of the weapon and/or the ability of the shooter to fully and rationally compensate for the variables involved.

In the case of the 2600m shot, the sheer distance, varied winds, and unknown ammunition were beyond his full control.

In the case of the sniper shooting at targets obscured by a wall, the ability to known exactly where his targets were behind that wall were beyond their control.

If what you are reacting to is the accusation that there was NO skill involved, I am in full agreement with you. Clearly there was significant skill involved otherwise they wouldn't have been close enough for the uncertainty of chance to fufill a hit.

If what you are asserting is that these snipers are somehow perfect, and were able to shoot beyond the inherent limitations of there equipment and unknowns, then explain to me how they can overcome the inherent accuracy limitations of their equipment and rationally plan for where ammo will hit which they have never shot before?? Or how they can see through a solid wall and know exactly where the target is, so they can hit it square on? I directly asked you how a sniper would rationally compensate to place a shot with unknown ammunition and you did not answer this question.

I am simply asserting that, when snipers employ their weapons at the fringes of their effective range, luck/chance must necessarily play a role in determining what is a "kill" and what is not. The shot in the backpack vs the shot that killed the insurgent, was there any meaningful difference in the role of the sniper placing those shots? I doubt it. The precision of the weapon was not that exact. Again, repeating what I have already said, sniping is NOT hunting. The same rules do not apply. I think it obvious that one should not be taking hunting shots at the fringes of their weapons' effective range, where chance necessarily plays a role. You cannot argue that you are placing shots more precisely than the inherent accuracy of the weapon. In war, however, if such shots stand even a remote chance of preventing the enemy from achieving their goals or taking out a good guy I say go for it. And that's what they did, with success in the end. Kudos to the snipers, but let's not pretend that a hit on a .25 MOA target with a weapon posessing .5 MOA accuracy (as an example) includes no chance/luck in the equation because to imply that spits on the very mathematics on which long range shooting is based.
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  •   #79  
    Unread 01-06-2010, 09:14 AM
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    Re: History's Sniper show

    For those concerned with my personality flaws I am well aware of them and people who are around me much can confirm that they are true. I even gave you a reference to check at the Special, Forces Sniper School. He will verify that I am a mean, ornery person.

    So as I see it Phorwath wonít apologize to RS2G and ATH will not correct an untruthful post.

    It doesnít get much simpler than what has been said already


    Those that can go and do; and. those who canít whine and complain.


    P.S.

    For the reading impaired who think kills are not notched at long range with a 308 by combat snipers:


    Quote:
    this guy is using a M21 with a 3X9 BDC type scope (Leatherwood ART) in a 1 inch tube. Do the math on the drops needed for a 308 and see if any 1 inch tube scope in the world has enough elevation to get to 1600 meters. These are meters not yards so do the math. Then remember my sniper beat that shot by several hundred meters and it was witnessed by quite a few people
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      #80  
    Unread 01-06-2010, 03:14 PM
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    Re: History's Sniper show

    I dont know how I missed this thread until now

    Adapt, Improvise and Overcome. Do those words sound familiar to anyone? It sounds to me that is exactley what Rob Furlong was doing. I have read a couple of accounts of that story and I am not at all disappointed with his shot(s), whatever you wish to call it, luck or skill. The fact that he was using unfamiliar ammo makes it all the more incredible in my eyes. It took three shots from 2430 m,each getting closer. Anyone here that could do better? Sorry, I see very little luck in that and Bill is correct about the proper definition of luck.

    What we have hear is a high level of skill. At that range, the the rifle/load degree of error combined with enviromental factors is probably larger than the human body. It takes skill to get to that window and it takes a certain element of probable chance (what some refer to as luck) to hit something smaller in that window. Any disagreement so far?

    GG, no offense, but what you saw as disappointing - the fact he was using unfamiliar ammo, rifle not tuned and sight for that ammo, heating cartrdges in the sun to extract the most he could, etc. - I saw all this as WOW, and he got the job done. GG, dude, this is combat. This isn't BR, or rock chucks or elk. You do what you can to get the job done. Adapt, improvise and overcome! Are you suggesting he shouldn't have taken the shot because he was not confident in a one shot kill? And that because it took three shots, it was luck? In my eyes, each one of those shots were amazing and I was very impressed unlike some here. Was he better or as good as Carlos? Who knows and who cares? They were both very good at what they did.

    One shot, one kill is always better, but is not always necessary for snipers. In hunting big game we value and respect the game we are hunting as a resource. This is not the case with enemy human targets. And GG, I know you were not trying to disparage the snipers in question, but still... disappointing???

    Buffalobob and RSG2... hats off to you.

    Mark

    Last edited by MontanaRifleman; 01-07-2010 at 12:16 PM.
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      #81  
    Unread 01-06-2010, 04:22 PM
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    Re: History's Sniper show

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Buffalobob View Post

    So as I see it Phorwath won’t apologize to RS2G. judgement

    Those that can go and do; and. those who can’t whine and complain. walk on water


    P.S.

    For the reading impaired who think kills are not notched at long range with a 308 by combat snipers: condescension.
    My hat's off to ya.
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      #82  
    Unread 01-06-2010, 08:43 PM
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    Re: History's Sniper show

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    I dont know how I missed this thread until now

    Adapt, Improvise and Overcome. Do those words sound familiar to anyone? It sounds to me that is exactley what Rob Furlong was doing. I have read a couple of accounts of that story and I am not at all disappointed with his shot(s), whatever you wish to call it, luck or skill. The fact that he was using unfamiliar ammo makes it all the more incredible in my eyes. It took three shots from 2430 m,each getting closer. Anyone here that could better? Sorry, I see very little luck in that and Bill is correct about the proper definition of luck.

    What we have hear is a high level of skill. At that range, the the rifle/load degree of error combined with enviromental factors is probably larger than the human body. It takes skill to get to that window and it takes a certain element of probable chance (what some refer to as luck) to hit something smaller in that window. Any disagreement so far?

    GG, no offense, but what you saw as disappointing - the fact he was using unfamiliar ammo, rifle not tuned and sight for that ammo, heating cartrdges in the sun to extract the most he could, etc. - I saw all this as WOW, and he got the job done. GG, dude, this is combat. This isn't BR, or rock chucks or elk. You do what you can to get the job done. Adapt, improvise and overcome! Are you suggesting he shouldn't have taken the shot because he was not confident in a one shot kill? And that because it took three shots, it was luck? In my eyes, each one of those shots were amazing and I was very impressed unlike some here. Was he better or as good as Carlos? Who knows and who cares? They were both very good at what they did.

    One shot, one kill is always better, but is not always necessary for snipers. In hunting big game we value and respect the game we are hunting as a resource. This is not the case with enemy human targets. And GG, I know you were not trying to disparage the snipers in question, but still... disappointing???

    Buffalobob and RSG2... hats off to you.

    Mark
    MontanaRifleman,

    You think you...

    Your post expresses the way I feel about it. I respect every one's opinions but don't agree with everyone, that's OK, that's expected to be so.

    MRM, thanks for posting that, very simple, very down to earth, very powerful. Thanks again.
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    Our Lord Jesus said that as it was in the days of Noah and
    also as it was in the days of Lot so it shall be in the days...
    It's happening again!!! God sent to us His prophet, and His Word
    to this generation and we once more are rejecting it as was prophesied!!!

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      #83  
    Unread 01-06-2010, 10:07 PM
    ATH ATH is offline
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    Re: History's Sniper show

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    At that range, the the rifle/load degree of error combined with enviromental factors is probably larger than the human body. It takes skill to get to that window and it takes a certain element of probable chance (what some refer to as luck) to hit something smaller in that window.
    This is exactly what I have said what, two or three times now? I'm in total agreement with you! The one factor that further added chance to the first shot was the unknown ammo.

    BB, I am glad you are aware that you are mean and ornery though most people would not take so much pride in that. I will add to that one who reacts emotionally rather than rationally.

    I'm not correcting "an untruthful post" because it is not, you are simply not capable of reacting to this in a rational manner. Not my fault.

    The sad thing is that you and I are more in agreement than disagreement on this but you are just not big enough to approach this more maturely than to name call and throw personal insults. I'm done with this ugly trainwreck, there are more pleasant and rational people to deal with around here.
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      #84  
    Unread 01-06-2010, 11:29 PM
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    Re: History's Sniper show

    Quote:
    I am glad you are aware that you are mean and ornery though most people would not take so much pride in that
    Very few people actually want to be.


    Two Weeks In Hell: What It Takes : Video : Discovery Channel

    Two Weeks In Hell: Selection Begins : Video : Discovery Channel

    Two Weeks In Hell: Only The First Day : Video : Discovery Channel

    Two Weeks In Hell: Nasty Nick : Video : Discovery Channel

    Two Weeks In Hell: Gut-Checks and Puking : Video : Discovery Channel

    For anyone who actually wishes to see the whole show I believe it will air again January 14. The process is just to select those who will actually undergo the extensive training. Most of the guys will have been through infantry school and airborne school which weeds out about 20-30 percent of them. Mental desire to overcome obstacles including pain is probably the most valuable skill. It also helps to be mildly crazy.

    Quote:
    there are more pleasant and rational people to deal with around here.
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