"The question is still on the table. Do they shoot back? Do you call it "fair chase"?
I don't believe that is noted in any record books.
Do they shoot back? No, they choose not too.
They have had many years to learn this but have been unable to learn.
Do you call it "fair chase"? YES
Cause I chase after them where ever in the H3LL they go.
If I want a cage match I will watch wrestling.
Yes it is fair chase. The animals have every opportunity to arm themselves. They choose not to and have not gained the knowledge or experience among other things to choose to do so. Have you started training your buffaloes for a hunt of this format?
TO EACH HIS OWN
I'm not for baiting or luring for most big game animals.
I have hunted free chase on all my hunts and I hunt public land.
I am looking forward to the migration of the Wolf to push the big game animals around and get alot of the animals off pivate property ranches that are making money off public animals and many of these ranches are NOT allowing enough or any public access. Also to be able to hunt one of them critters.
Next question: Any of these ranched or canned hunts using steroids?
H3LL just buy a cow and have it slaughtered costs less.
The next thing we'll talk about is weather "dog fighting is just like hunting deer" which is a quote from a NY knick basketball player concerning the QB, Michael Vick and his dog fighting practices.
Location, Location, Location - Send It
IMO, this is just a peeing match and kind of silly!
We all can hunt how we please and if somebody doesn't consider it hunting WHO in the heck cares?
This is Long Range Hunting! There are plenty of snobs that will, very vocally, tell you that it isn't hunting because you don't try to get closer! All I can say to them is that is YOUR particular challenge, but not mine. Don't like it, then get out of my face!
Is it "Fair Chase"? It is not for me, or ANYBODY on this Forum to debate about what B&C or Pope & Young call "Fair Chase"! It is THEIR Book, and they decide what goes in and what does not. THEY define the weapons used, the legal projectiles, etc. nobody else.
If you don't like it, then don't submit to THEIR rules and don't enter your trophy. Start your own book, or buy the rights to theirs and change the rules.
I used to have a low opinion of high fence hunting until I was finally talked into going on a high fence bow hunt for exotic deer species with a group of good friends. After three days of hunting my butt of and hiking some tall MO hills and not having a shot, I changed my mind! I now look forward to that hunt every March.
Kirby is right....it is what you make of it. I know there are some highly confined "shoots" out there, but find a good operation and give it a try before you knock it. I'm sure glad I tried it the first time!
Being from Texas, I assume you know of the YO ranch and the 777 ranch. Would you call hunts on these ranches Canned hunts?
The reason I ask is because they are some of the more famous whitetail ranches in Texas and yes they are confined by high fence.
You really need to go on a good high fence hunt. I do not mean to insult you in any way but you are really uneducated about the subject of what these hunts can be like. I have never been on a hunt where I was driven around until I saw the animal I wanted to shoot and then shoot him.
We have driven to a certain area, gotten out and hunted from there, same as if there was no high fence around. Your comments just suprise me. I would also be curious if you would consider hunting in south africa. If so, 85% of all hunting in south africa is behind high fences. They will tell you it is to keep poachers and predators out but it is no different then any other high fence hunting ranch other then its in africa so it makes it alright.
There is such a huge variaty of game to be hunted in the US that did not used to be here and hunters used to have to travel thousands of miles if they wanted certain animals. That is not the case now and the challange of these hunts is no less then if you were hunting them in the wild where they originated. In fact, with many species, they have gone nearly extinct in their native lands but because of american ranchers and hunters, their numbers are very large here in the US where they were introduced and are now thriving.
I have driven through TX from the top of the panhandle to the tip in the Gulf. Besides a bit in the panhandle, it was nothing but high fence after high fence. Just because you fence in the native game does not mean its any better then fencing in exotic game.
again, I do not mean to offend but you are really uneducated in what is out there as far as challanges in some of these hunts. If you lump them all into the same catagory like your doing, all of these hunts are unethical.
WHen I hunt wild deer, if I get within 800 yards of a deer, the only thing that determines if that deer lives or dies is my decision to shoot him or not. Is that fair chase??? Many will say no!!! But why not, the deer are wild, unconfined deer. Is it my ability to kill a deer at 1/2 mile that makes it unethical????? Is it not fair chase still even though when it comes down to it, its very easy to get within a half mile of any deer even if wild. Is it unethical for me to shoot that deer when the deer feels totally safe because he has learned all his life that the humans can not hurt him from a certain distance???
Am I unethical when I slip a bullet though his ribs at that range even though he tought he was perfectly safe standing there watching me from what he believed was a safe distance.
I would agree, some ranches are really sick but most of them have been closed down due to responses from hunters.
Again, you need to learn what actually happens on these hunts instead of sitting there looking down your nose at these ranches because you believe them to be nothing more then canned hunts and unethical. In your own words, you have never been on one so how can you comment about it one way or another, especially against them. If you had at least been on some I would respect your opinion on the matter but not until you actually try something should you hammer it so aggressively.
By the way, there is a record book for just this type of hunt. Safari Club International has record book listings for estate hunting and they have the same ethical guidelines as the B&C club only they cover world wide game. Again, broadin your horizons, there is alot more out there to be had. You missing out on alot of fun hunts for exotic game and its a pitty to as you live in THE biggest high fence hunting state in the country and world for that matter.
Kirby ---- Thank you for your thought out response first of all. For clarification I did not say I have never been on a HF Operation I have just never hunted on one actually been on several over the years. Secondly, the way I like to hunt is just that the way I like to do it. We have a HF Operation in the general vicinity of the ranch and because of the massive rains we had earlier this year many of the creek crossings washed out again so we are seeing different exotics including an elk roaming around lol.
If one chooses to hunt in a fenced or not in a fenced area that is their personal decision plain and simple. The rationale that helps one determine where and how to hunt depends how they were introduced into hunting and where they are from to a great extent. It is just a personal decision on my part that the “free range” definition and criteria by the B&CC determines the way in which I hunt.
I do like to shoot exotics in fact killed the #79 in Texas in 1991 when it was shot Aoudad (they really tear up fences btw) that we see from time to time. The floods when they do happen take the fences out and establish a new free ranging habitat for all kinds of animals which if we had high fence I would never get to see or hunt.
Just a suggestion and I am not being condescending at all but to imply or as you stated that Texas was just one HF after another is not a factual but a subjective statement. It is evident that while you may have driven through parts of the state on occasion you are not familiar enough with the subject matter to make that blanket assessment.
The Truth Is Not Always Good For Business!!
Points taken. A couple questions, had your Aoudad been inside a 50,000 acre encloser, would he have been any easier to kill or would he have been prevented from escaping you as a hunter if you did not do your part?
When we hunted in Texas, the ranch owner had s couple biologists on his ranch checking out some of the game he had and we talked with them for quite a while and they both said that Texas was well over 70% high fenced area from the last state study they have been a part with. Now they did not say if that was total land area in Texas, or just agricultural type lands or what but either way, that seems like alot to me being from a state that you hardly ever see it unless your looking at a buffalo ranch.
Point being, its common place in Texas for land owners to put up a high fence. Only difference in Texas is that they can fence in all the wild game on the property which I believe is pretty unique compared to any other states laws.
How is it ethical to fence in native game but be opposed to fencing in exotic game?
I talked with one old boy that was in my shop a couple months ago and he noticed some of the exotic heads I have in the shop and asked where I got them. He pretty much chewed me up one end and down the other saying how I was promoting canned hunting.
Funny thing is I had talked to this guy many times about whitetail hunting and he commented he had always wanted to get to Texas to hunt whitetails on one of the famous ranches down there.
My reply to him was would you like to hunt whitetails on the YO ranch and his reply was that he would love to.
I then asked if he would like to hunt Fallow deer on the YO and his reply was he never would because that is simply a canned hunt.
When I informed him that he would be sitting on the same stands weither hunting whitetails or Fallow he just set there looking at me.
Point being, a HUGE amount of whitetail hunting in Texas which is considered fair chase and no one would really ever question that is done behind game fances because its legal to fence in native game in Texas. BUT say your hunting exotics on the same ranch and many will give you heck for it. Why is that????
Alot of B&C and P&Y whitetail are entered into the record books every year from Texas ranches that have high fence around their boarders. Is this really fair chase as defined by B&C and P&Y???? I think not in the literal terms, still noone has a problem with that.
I have a bigger problem with fencing in native game then shooting transplanted game behind high fences.....
Just my opinion,
Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.
Hopefully I will be seeing our GW this weekend but I doubt it as it is the opening day of dove season but the 70% figure seems obscenely high given what I have seen but I will ask if there is any state compiled data. Drove to Trinidad CO back last weekend 3 weeks before that out to Pecos for a family funeral and only saw the same HF’s that I have been seeing for the last 25 years. That being said down in the hill country driving down hwy 16 from I 20 you see quite a few high fences.
To answer your question about the Aoudad it is best addressed this way I believe-------in a free range environment it is always possible to jump the fence and go somewhere else and in a high fence environment it is not. Some people do not see that as an issue but I know that that it is one more variable that has to be accounted for in my planning and execution. The same thing goes for the indigenous species and I can remember many times watching a nice young deer with great potential moving towards the fence line and 15 minutes later or so hearing a shot. To me that is what makes it hunting – not knowing that “ole big” will be there the next time I go out looking for him and that plays a significant part in keeping my interest peaked.
We plant different food plots in the spring and fall for the birds and other animals (will be firing up the Deere this weekend glad it has AC!!) to contribute to the quality of the animals. We work extensively with both the State and DOW Biologists with what we plant and where we plant it and after 4 years of doing this are really starting to see some great animals. Maybe this year I will see a big and old deer that will end up on the ground. Saturday evening I will be sitting up on a large hill that happens to be one of the highest points in the county looking for the cursed feral hogs (338 Lapua AI built by Speedy makes short work of them)!! I have a 1K match to shoot in next weekend and will be doing some work on the chrono Sunday morning while breaking in the new barrel.
Everyone else will be dove hunting but since I don’t like to eat them anymore I do other things like looking for where Mr. Big lives.
The Truth Is Not Always Good For Business!!
In hearing the descriptions of the Texas HF operations, it raises more questions.
Since they are so large, is there a "Buffer area" around the fences? If I were to hunt with a friend and I was near a fence then if he shoots and an animal runs toward the fence he is trapped. However, if you were not allowed to hunt within a reasonable distance then that might be OK. In Flat and Open country that might mean a mile or more from the fence. To some folks it does not matter, but to me if the animal has nowhere to go then I am just shooting and not hunting....IMO
No judgements, someday I may not have the time or be able to hunt the way that I do....then I may try it and perhaps enjoy it.