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European products?

 
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  #8  
Old 08-25-2013, 02:01 PM
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Re: European products?

Europe produces a lot of high quality shooting products. That said, by the time they reach the US, import fees drive costs up making it difficult to compete with US made products.

When it comes to brass, IMO, Lapua is hands down the best. I really wish they made it in more cartridges because i will always buy it if I have the opportunity. It puzzles me why no US manufacturers have not risen to Lapua's quality.

As for rifles, IMO, most major US manufactures leave a lot to be desired in quality. They have a big corporation, bottomline/profit mentality and will produce the lowest quality product they can get away with with the best profit margin. I think Weatherby and Savage to a degree is an exception to this rule.

That said, there are smaller companies like Cooper who take pride in their work and produce high quality products for a reasonble price and then there is Dakota that produces higher end/priced quality prices. Also for the more serious and descriminating shooters, there is a large array of makers custom rifles and custom rifle components with an equally large array of fine gunsmiths to put them together. So although Europeans make fine rifles, there is a great deal of competion here in the US for probably a little better price.

Optics.... I currently own a Leica 1600 which is by far the best RF in its class. My next RF will likely be a Electronics Terrapin. Europe is way out in front when it comes to RF's. For rifle scopes, I think Nightforce is the best there is for a LR field scope. European glass has been better than the Japanese made NF glass until the development of the ACTAR and BEAST. Now I would say they are close to equal in glass quality. For the $$$$, NF is hard to beat in the US.

Powder... A lot of powder sold in the US is made overseas. Hogdon powders are made in Australia and are some of my favorite. When it comes to powder, I choose whatever works best in my rifle no matter where it's made.

Bullets... here, I think the US has the best selection. I find GSC bullets very interesting but also very spendy, so they need to prove their value to me to buy and use them.
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  #9  
Old 08-25-2013, 03:37 PM
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Re: European products?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILtoMT50 View Post
I plan on purchasing a Zeiss hd5 in the near future. I can tell ya this much, Id be more apt to buying a product from Europe if we had them available than I would most of the Asian junk the markets are flooded with now. Shotty quality control and standard of materials used are lowgrade in most of them. Thats just my experiance and opinion.
That's a bit of a broad statement with a lot of truth in it.... but... there is a lot of extremely good quality glass coming from Asia, namely Japan, where Nightforce and many other scope makers get their glass. Even USO outsources some level of their scope manufacturing overseas, although they will not disclose as to who. My guess is probably the same company that does NF glass.... just a wild guess.

As for the junk that floods our market, the reason it does it because there is a large market for it. Americans buy it. They/we fall for marketing and brand name loyalty. Most Leuplold users probably don't realize they are buying a highly Asian product.
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  #10  
Old 08-25-2013, 04:00 PM
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Re: European products?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
That's a bit of a broad statement with a lot of truth in it.... but... there is a lot of extremely good quality glass coming from Asia, namely Japan, where Nightforce and many other scope makers get their glass. Even USO outsources some level of their scope manufacturing overseas, although they will not disclose as to who. My guess is probably the same company that does NF glass.... just a wild guess.

As for the junk that floods our market, the reason it does it because there is a large market for it. Americans buy it. They/we fall for marketing and brand name loyalty. Most Leuplold users probably don't realize they are buying a highly Asian product.


Definitely, I know Japan has pretty good optics, I noticed I failed to mention that after I posted lol I meant the Chineese products mainly. Your right the way people buy it up its going to stay the same as it is now for quite some time.
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  #11  
Old 08-26-2013, 12:47 AM
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Re: European products?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
Europe produces a lot of high quality shooting products. That said, by the time they reach the US, import fees drive costs up making it difficult to compete with US made products.

When it comes to brass, IMO, Lapua is hands down the best. I really wish they made it in more cartridges because i will always buy it if I have the opportunity. It puzzles me why no US manufacturers have not risen to Lapua's quality.

As for rifles, IMO, most major US manufactures leave a lot to be desired in quality. They have a big corporation, bottomline/profit mentality and will produce the lowest quality product they can get away with with the best profit margin. I think Weatherby and Savage to a degree is an exception to this rule.

That said, there are smaller companies like Cooper who take pride in their work and produce high quality products for a reasonble price and then there is Dakota that produces higher end/priced quality prices. Also for the more serious and descriminating shooters, there is a large array of makers custom rifles and custom rifle components with an equally large array of fine gunsmiths to put them together. So although Europeans make fine rifles, there is a great deal of competion here in the US for probably a little better price.

Optics.... I currently own a Leica 1600 which is by far the best RF in its class. My next RF will likely be a Electronics Terrapin. Europe is way out in front when it comes to RF's. For rifle scopes, I think Nightforce is the best there is for a LR field scope. European glass has been better than the Japanese made NF glass until the development of the ACTAR and BEAST. Now I would say they are close to equal in glass quality. For the $$$$, NF is hard to beat in the US.

Powder... A lot of powder sold in the US is made overseas. Hogdon powders are made in Australia and are some of my favorite. When it comes to powder, I choose whatever works best in my rifle no matter where it's made.

Bullets... here, I think the US has the best selection. I find GSC bullets very interesting but also very spendy, so they need to prove their value to me to buy and use them.
Thanks for the extensive and reasoned answer. The most you are writing is correct, especially in terms of "value for the money". It was interesting that you named Cooper because the company has a great reputation and a lot fans over here. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to get them bought. Due to US - export restrictions, war on terror, it's very difficult to get guns or gunparts shipped overseas. I personally send a mail to cooper arms last week to hear if they've got an agent in Europe (Germany). They were very kind and serviceminded and answered immediately. They suggested shipping via Canada!! I love the Mod. 56 (LH) in 7 RM and are very interested in it. Here in Norway we have a dealer selling only a few types of Cooper, but the prices are just extreme in comparison to the US. NF produces fantastic scopes and they are getting better all the time, but they don't reach the clarity of European highend glasses. I know, they are much cheaper...
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2013, 09:24 AM
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Re: European products?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varberger757 View Post
Thanks for the extensive and reasoned answer. The most you are writing is correct, especially in terms of "value for the money". It was interesting that you named Cooper because the company has a great reputation and a lot fans over here. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to get them bought. Due to US - export restrictions, war on terror, it's very difficult to get guns or gunparts shipped overseas. I personally send a mail to cooper arms last week to hear if they've got an agent in Europe (Germany). They were very kind and serviceminded and answered immediately. They suggested shipping via Canada!! I love the Mod. 56 (LH) in 7 RM and are very interested in it. Here in Norway we have a dealer selling only a few types of Cooper, but the prices are just extreme in comparison to the US. NF produces fantastic scopes and they are getting better all the time, but they don't reach the clarity of European highend glasses. I know, they are much cheaper...
I hope you get your Cooper. They are a very good rifle. I plan to get one someday myself after a few other rifle projects are complete. I was thinking of one of the 6mm chamberings, maybe a 243. It's very unfortunate about all the fees and restrictions. BTW, I do have a Sako that is stamped, "Made In Finnland" Unfortunately it is a lemon and is shooting about 3 MOA. I am not at all happy with the US based Beretta customer service. Of all the rifles I have I like the Sako action the best. I'm going to rebarrel it and put it in a McMillan Stock.

I know the NXS scopes do not have the same quality of glass that the upper end European scopes do, but it is still very good quality. What I like about the Nightforce scopes are their ruggedness and mechanical precision. I was once walking down an icy frozen forest road while hunting with rifle slung on my back. I slipped and my feet went up and I went back full weight onto my rifle and scope. It still works perfectly. That said, I think the ACTAR and BEAST may give the Europeans some competition in glass quality.
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2013, 10:03 AM
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Re: European products?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
I hope you get your Cooper. They are a very good rifle. I plan to get one someday myself after a few other rifle projects are complete. I was thinking of one of the 6mm chamberings, maybe a 243. It's very unfortunate about all the fees and restrictions. BTW, I do have a Sako that is stamped, "Made In Finnland" Unfortunately it is a lemon and is shooting about 3 MOA. I am not at all happy with the US based Beretta customer service. Of all the rifles I have I like the Sako action the best. I'm going to rebarrel it and put it in a McMillan Stock.

I know the NXS scopes do not have the same quality of glass that the upper end European scopes do, but it is still very good quality. What I like about the Nightforce scopes are their ruggedness and mechanical precision. I was once walking down an icy frozen forest road while hunting with rifle slung on my back. I slipped and my feet went up and I went back full weight onto my rifle and scope. It still works perfectly. That said, I think the ACTAR and BEAST may give the Europeans some competition in glass quality.
Yes, would be really nice with a Cooper 56 in a Classic custom stock. Looks great and shoots surely the same. To mount the scope I'd like to use the Recknagel picatinny rail ssk - II combined with QRW or PQR rings. We'll see, I might realize the project in the course of the next 12 months, finances... What kind of Sako are you using, Mod. 75 or 85? They normally make rifles on very high quality levels and they really aren't cheap stuff, in contrary. All the people I know who have one are very satisfied especially everything concerning precision. So I'm really wondering. But mixing up serious Suomis with Italians won't work out! What kind of reticle in a NF - scope would be suitable for hunting at dawn or even night (moonlight) . In Europe we often have to hunt while it's dark (wild boar and sometimes stag).
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2013, 10:44 AM
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Re: European products?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varberger757 View Post
Yes, would be really nice with a Cooper 56 in a Classic custom stock. Looks great and shoots surely the same. To mount the scope I'd like to use the Recknagel picatinny rail ssk - II combined with QRW or PQR rings. We'll see, I might realize the project in the course of the next 12 months, finances... What kind of Sako are you using, Mod. 75 or 85? They normally make rifles on very high quality levels and they really aren't cheap stuff, in contrary. All the people I know who have one are very satisfied especially everything concerning precision. So I'm really wondering. But mixing up serious Suomis with Italians won't work out!
Haha.. very true!

It is an M85 Finnlight chambered in 300 WSM. The craftsmanship of the action is excellent. Very smooth! I do not like the recoil lug design though and had my smith mill up another. Still didn't help the accuracy issue. Since it is a short action amd magnum bolt face, I will probably rebarrel to a 6mm SAUM. Yes, most people over here are very happy with their Sako's and Tikka's but some lemons pop up now and then

Sounds like you have a good plan for your Cooper. Post some pics when you get up and running.

Quote:
What kind of reticle in a NF - scope would be suitable for hunting at dawn or even night (moonlight) . In Europe we often have to hunt while it's dark (wild boar and sometimes stag).
Here we can not hunt game after dark. In Montana hunting hours start 1/2 hour before sunrise and end 1/2 hour after sunset, so the NXS is very capable of shooting in that light. We can hunt vermin like coyotes and ferral pigs at night (no pigs in Montana). On moonlit nights, I can see well enough on my low power of 5.5X to shoot. If there is snow on the ground which is about 5-6 months of the year, I need almost no moon light. I have not yet done it, but hunting coyotes at night would be good sport.
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