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A Bore Cleaner Test

 
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  #29  
Old 10-10-2006, 10:28 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Re: 50 BMG as a copper remover.....

I'm back from my moose hunt. Iím happy to report that a moose died on the third day. One shot, one moose and from a 270 Winchester shooting a 130 grain bullet. Heresy I know, but the moose is dead nevertheless skinned and hanging in my machine shop aging. Tenderloins are in the fridge marinating as I write this. Great supper coming up tonight! Life is good.

A lot of information and more than a few challengeable statements posted above, especially by B1G BORE.

B1G BORE has been liberal spreading his qualifications around, qualifications that remain theoretical. He seems to have a boner for a product heís never used. I purchased the products in question and tested them, even and unto putting them down bores that I own. Theoretical repudiation of any test is theory, not proof. So far B1G BORE has been all theory and no proof. He claims logic for his side, but itís illogical to push an untested theory as proof that a test with demonstrable results is invalid. If I read all of B1G BOREíS objections to Warthog accurately, they stack up something like this: In order to work, bore cleaners need an oxidizer, something a submersion test doesnít supply. Warthog contains an oxidizer, therefore, he isnít going to use it.

And then, to make his theoretical arguments worse, he violates the rules by proposing to put Warthog down the barrel for 24 hours violating the use instructions that come with the product. And to get out of doing actual tests, he states bore cleaners are too expensive to Baume test. Iíve been up front: Warthog is ammonia based. No need to Baume test it. The rest, that little extra that makes it work and work well, is a trade secret.

For all the noise about logic, B1G BORE arrives at a very illogical conclusion: Donít use Warthog because it will do exactly what I say it will do. But then, he canít prove any of what heís saying because he hasnít used or tested Warthog. How to test Warthog and other bore cleaners seems to be beyond us mere mortals stuck down here on a level where we actually put bore cleaners inside bores to see what happens. The score so far: B1G BORE has a theory while I have a product that if used as instructed, does exactly what I say it will do, and that is, clean copper fouling out of a bore faster than and as safe as, any product on the market.

Unlike B1G BORE, I used my rifles as guinea pigs, including my pet, a Model 70 stainless with a very expensive barrel with cut rifling. No damage to any of them and Iíve cleaned them with the Warthog prototype for a long time. Before I used what eventually became Warthog 1134 on my rifle bores, I obtained some 4140 barrel steel and some stainless steel the number of which escapes me at the moment. I got the number off a custom barrel makerís web site. I also used a piece of a stainless barrel I cut off a Winchester barrel that I shortened. I tested the Warthog prototype on these steels. I put it on and left it on and checked it every hour on the hour. Thatís how I arrived at the use instructions. WARTHOG 1134 IS SAFE, IF YOU FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. If you donít, you are on your own. No manufacturer of any product that I know of will warranty any product against abuse. Neither do we. That would be stupid. Iím not stupid and my partners arenít stupid.

A bore cleaner, including Warthog, isnít much different than medical care. You go to a doctor with a life threatening condition. The doctor prescribes a drug and a regiment for taking that drug. He instructs you to take 1 pill in the morning, 1 pill at noon, and 1 pill at night for three weeks. You decided to speed up the process. Hell, what does the doctor know? You ignore the doctorís instructions. You take 3 pills in the morning, 3 pills at noon, and 3 pills at night for a week instead of the 3 week regiment. Your condition worsens, and now, in addition to the original illness, youíve created a new problem, possibly a fatal problem. How many guys here, other than lawyers using twisted logic, would hold the doctor responsible for the idiocy of not following the instructions on the bottle? Itís the same with using Warthog, or any of the cleaners on the market, for that matter. You have to follow the instructions! Remove Warthog completely when the bore is clean. If there is any residue left, you didnít remove everything from the bore. If there is any residue in the muzzle brake, remove it. I learned that lesson the first time I stood inspection with my M-14 and my DI found residue in the flash suppressor.

I will address B1G BOREíS idea of putting Warthog down the barrel for 24 hours as part of routine cleaning regiment. Only with oral and written permission from me personally. Letís say you find a rifle at a rummage sale. The bore shows 50 years of neglect. The bore may be beyond salvage. You donít know because you canít get past the crud to see if there is actually a bore present under the crud. You clean but nothing on the shelf gets the crud out. Contact me. Iíll work with you to solve the problem, if itís possible to solve. Warthog wonít miraculously cure a bore thatís beyond salvage, but it will clean years worth of crud out of a usable bore. If you put Warthog down the bore for 24 hours as part of a routine cleaning regiment, well, itís your bore, you can use it or abuse it any way you choose. Just donít expect me to stand responsible for any damage you cause by misusing our product. FOLLOW THE INSTUCTIONS and your bore will be safe. B1G BORE is correct. Oxidizers donít care what they oxidize. He wrote out a formula that is beyond question. What the formula doesnít make clear is the element of time. Call it rust, oxidation, or corrosion; it takes time. That time element is what makes a bore cleaner safe.

Those guys that claim they can put _______ (Fill in the blank) down their bore for days and even weeks without damage; if _______ (Fill in the blank) wonít damage your bore in that amount of time, it wonít take out copper fouling.

Somebody mentioned above that a shiny new bullet would react different to a bore cleaner than the copper from that same bullet left behind in a bore. We roughed up copper and placed it in Warthog. Warthog worked even faster on the rough surface. If you believe the theory that a new bullet is an invalid test object, then by logical extension, you have to believe that firing that same bullet down a bore somehow changes it into a material that is immune to a formula that will dissolve it before firing that same bullet.

Iíll defend the safely of Warthog and every cleaner on the market. BUT YOU HAVE THE FOLLOW THE DAMNED INSTUCTIONS. Our product is as safe as you make it, just like your rifle is as safe as you make it. Misuse and abuse either, and only a shyster lawyer will sympathize with you.

B1G BORE insinuated above that I have a financial interest in Warthog. I unequivocally and without hesitation categorically state, that I do. My partners and I arenít running a charity. My financial interest doesnít change or cloud the tests I ran. Anybody can run the tests to prove me right or wrong. I developed Warthog for personal use because I hate cleaning bores. It worked so well that my partner and I decided to market it. Itís the only product we have available, and with the exception of trying to develop jags that will stand up to Warthog, will probably remain our only product.

Jeffbird ran a test on Warthog and several other solvents and posted the results on a site linked above. I donít know Jeff other than as a customer. We talked by phone after he ran the tests. I didnít know about the test until he told me that he ran the test. I had nothing to do with his test. Iím not surprised at the results. Had I known about the test, I would have predicted the outcome.

Feedback is starting to trickle back from users. So far itís positive. Warthog is working as advertised.

Somebody asked in a post if I objected to a group of guys passing a bottle of Warthog around as a floating test. Have at it. The more the merrier. I believe as word gets around, Warthog will become the copper solvent to beat. But be aware, we are a small company with limited production capacity, and therefore, limited product available. We made up our minds that we are going to stay small because we donít want the business to interfere with our hunting and fishing. Weíre being up front about that. The hunting season means we will not be here to fill orders or answer questions. But since hunting seasons run at the same time around the country, you ought to be out fouling bores, not worrying about cleaning them. (We are training our wives to ship. I ran my wife through the paces while gone on my moose hunt. She did just fine.)

One last thought: Wipeout is supposed to be the hottest cleaner since Christ cleaned the Temple. I forgot to clean my grandsonís 280 Remington last year. I thought it was clean when I put it away last year. When I took it out a few days ago, it had green streaks. I decided to use Wipeout. I followed the instructions. It worked as advertised. One dirty patch, and then a clean patch. Just for the hell of it, I ran a patch with 8 drops of Warthog down the barrel. Six strokes up and six strokes down and the patch came out as green as a Christmas tree. That is a simple test anybody can do.

I think whatís passing for clean is really not so clean. Why? Mass production of a potentially toxic substance has frightened a lot of manufacturers away. Blame liability lawyers. Itís a fact that Hoppes dumbed down their product because of just such concerns. I think weíre selling to people that are smart enough to use an effective product without hurting themselves just like they use firearms safely, and just like they use knives to clean what they bag, and just like they use a vehicle to get them to their shooting and hunting and to safely get them back. If you are on the road to hunting or shooting, just FOLLOW the instructions. They post them all up and down the road.
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  #30  
Old 10-11-2006, 08:51 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1,310
Re: 50 BMG as a copper remover.....

[ QUOTE ]
One last thought: Wipeout is supposed to be the hottest cleaner since Christ cleaned the Temple. I forgot to clean my grandsonís 280 Remington last year. I thought it was clean when I put it away last year. When I took it out a few days ago, it had green streaks. I decided to use Wipeout. I followed the instructions. It worked as advertised. One dirty patch, and then a clean patch. Just for the hell of it, I ran a patch with 8 drops of Warthog down the barrel. Six strokes up and six strokes down and the patch came out as green as a Christmas tree. That is a simple test anybody can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

What was the jag made of in this test?

JB
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  #31  
Old 10-11-2006, 10:49 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Fredericksburg VA
Posts: 4,118
Re: 50 BMG as a copper remover.....

I cannot say what works better on leaving blue marks on patches, never tried that as I want something that cuts copper out of barrels.

However, I have used 50 BMG, Eliminator, Wipeout, Barnes, Butchs Boreshine etc (never used Warthog) and nothing I have found cuts copper out of barrels like 50 BMG.

I will say that any test that shows Eliminator beating BMG is totally BS in my humble opinion. 2004 1k Nationals I had been using Eliminator and it was showing my barrel was clean. Tim North of Broughton rifle barrels used a video borescope (boy that thing will make you go out and buy a new barrel) to check it and it looked like a "goldmine" in there after Eliminator said it was clean. 10 minutes with BMG and the bore was 100% free of copper.

Will Warthog beat it, not sure but I know none of the others mentioned will cut copper in barrels like BMG.

BH
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  #32  
Old 10-11-2006, 02:46 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Re: 50 BMG as a copper remover.....

No jag. Undersized nylon brush wrapped with a 1.5" cotton patch. Brush has a steel shank so none of the blue came from the brush.
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  #33  
Old 10-13-2006, 08:18 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mississippi Delta
Posts: 161
Re: A Bore Cleaner Test

Over the last few years I've used the following copper solvents:

Sweets 7.62
Barnes CR-10
Wipeout
Butches Bore Shine
Coppermelt
Hoppes Benchrest
KG-12
Montana Extreme 50BMG
Boretech Benchrest Blend (not Eliminator)

(In all fairness to Coppermelt, I never did get an intact bottle. The two I received via the US postal service arrived with leakage problems, so I believe the effectiveness of this solvent was compromised from the outset.)

After using all of the above solvents at one time or another I believe Montana Extreme 50BMG works the best. It's the only copper solvent I've used that gives me considerable blue coloration on patches just from contact with brass jags. I've had to switch to applying it with a wool bore mop with steel core so I don't get false readings. Prior to trying 50BMG, my favorites were Barnes CR-10 and Wipeout. I still like 'em, just not as much as 50BMG.

As far as Warthog is concerned, I'm going to try it too, but I've got enough other solvents on hand right now that I'll probably wait till some time next year to buy some.
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  #34  
Old 12-12-2006, 12:32 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
Posts: 8,064
Re: A Bore Cleaner Test

I've used the following solutions marked with an asstorisk. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

That's what Nathan Hale said, "I regret that I have but one asterisk for my country. (Sorry Davy [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img])

*Sweets 7.62
Barnes CR-10
*Wipeout
Butches Bore Shine
Coppermelt
*Hoppes Benchrest
KG-12
Montana Extreme 50BMG
Boretech Benchrest Blend (not Eliminator)
* Warthog 1134

Favorite has been Wipeout. Its effective and there are minimal bore strokes involved. Accelerator speeds things up a bit but its not a quick clean thing. Also, other cleaners are necessary for exterior cleaning such as brake, chamber and bolt face, etc.

Warthog is fast and effective. On a quality custom bore I dislike many passes with the cleaning rod so I reduce the number of passes to what it takes to get the job done. I can get the Lilja barrels squeaky clean (carbon and copper) in about two passes each of 3 patches including the final lube patch. I soaked over night w/Wipeout as a check and no blue or carbon was evident.

With a drop or two of Warthog on a cotton swab the brake cleans up real quickly. This is to say that it is really great on carbon removal too.

Tried it on the Sig 9MM and it was really nice to use on that short barrel and anywhere that carbon was evident.

Which one will I use (Wipeout or Warthog)? It depends on my mood. I the rifle is due for cleaning and I'm gonna be around for a day or two and I'm not in a hurry I'll use Wipeout.

If the number of shots dictate an cleaning is appropriate and I still have some shooting to do, if I'm in a time crunch, if I won't be around the next day or so,or I am at the range or in the field, Warthog will get the pick.
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  #35  
Old 12-13-2006, 02:34 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Re: A Bore Cleaner Test

Thanks for the report. A little Warthog does go a long way. I'm going to have to re-write the instructions to say fewer strokes of the rod.

Now try it in reverse; clean with Wipe Out and then follow up with Warthog.

RogerK
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