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A Bore Cleaner Test

 
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  #22  
Old 09-30-2006, 10:51 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 186
50 BMG as a copper remover.....

I use several products on factory 22/250, 243, and 7 mag barrels. The 22/250 in particular is a copper pig. The 50 BMG get the copper out right now. I do believe that the 50 BMG is twice as effective as Sweets. My 7 STW shooting the 140 Noslers coppers at 3650 fps. The 50 BMG will get 95% of all the copper out in one 7-10 minute soaking.

I am going to order some of the wart hog copper remover, but I really don't know how the test of how much a bullet is "eaten" up relates to how well a solvent will work in a rifle barrel.
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  #23  
Old 09-30-2006, 01:01 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 878
Re: 50 BMG as a copper remover.....

1st of all, bigbore... I sure do love it when you start laying it out [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Jeff, the 50bmg in his tagline is a cartridge... and the website that is in the link in his tagline will take you directly to his website that deals specifically with it.


When I get back from my Pdog hunt in a few days im planning on ordering some of this stuff to try. If I like it more than 50bmg, my favorite at the moment, ill buy another bottle for personal use, and offer the other as a pass around. If I don't, ill offer that bottle up. Anybody that wants to try it let me know, and you get to try some... under the condition that if you like it, you buy your own bottle, and continue to pass the origional. Oh, and you pay shipping to the next guy, who pays to the next guy, and so on. Anybody interested?
Roge K, any objections? this ought to be a great way to get some publicity for your stuff!
If not, gentlemen, the line starts here:
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  #24  
Old 09-30-2006, 01:46 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 172
Re: 50 BMG as a copper remover.....

Great idea Abinok. If you don't mind, I think I will borrow your idea with credit to you and start it on the other board also.
Given the tenor of the thread, maybe he is just holding Roge's feet to the fire, but a disclosure is usually of value for consideration when commercial interests are at stake and comparative testing results are presented.

Let's compare notes from real use. I just loaded up some rounds and am heading to the range shortly.
BTW, what does Abinok mean/represent? I've been curious. Again, great idea. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #25  
Old 10-01-2006, 10:37 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 172
Warthog update

Well, here is an update. Shot two 30 round sessions, one in the morning and one in the afternoon of 7WSM today and 100 of 357 Sig yesterday (I left my rifle ammo at home yesterday arrgh.) which is relevant to this analysis. First off, my 7WSM was built by Chris Matthews and has a 24" Broughton. It does not foul much at all with anything except for Accubonds (which I why I dissolved them to see what would work on them) so it is hard to make many conclusions. However, based on my test, I fired 30 rounds and then cleaned first with Barnes, dry patched, and then followed with the Warthog. The Barnes really seemed to do the job, and nothing came out with the Warthog. Next I fired 30 more rounds and used the Warthog first, dry patched, and followed with the Barnes. The Warthog really seemed to do the job and nothing came out with the Barnes. However, I will say, the Warthog seemed to work somewhat faster. I left the 50BMG at home since I've given up on it and am returning my unopened bottles. Both the Barnes and Warthog seemed to pull out much more blue and do it faster. I push wet patches through which clears the carbon crud out and once I have a clean wet patch, let it soak for about 10 minutes. Then I repeat the wet patches until they come out clean. My only conclusion from the rifle was that both seemed to work. The Warthog worked a bit faster and I felt no need to push a brush through. The Warthog left a fine white powder around the muzzle brake. After both sessions, I pushed 2 patches of Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner Oil through and then a dry patch. Then I re-oiled with the MX Bore Conditioner Oil which is what I use to store it.
Now for the pistol, which was more informative. I rapidly fired 50 rounds of 357 Sig with W-W 125 gr. Rangers which are copper coated. The barrel was blistering hot and too hot to touch without a rag. Success was achieved and it had some serious fouling. I pushed Warthog through while it was still extremely hot. The Warthog did not seem to work at the high temperature and it cleaned a bit but not very much. I let the barrel cool to the ambient air temp. I pushed a wet patch with Warthog through and it instantly cleaned the copper. I had to look at it several times because I really was surprised, but it really worked. I dry patched and then pushed a patch through with the Barnes to see what would happen and nothing else came out. I did the same but tried the Barnes first and it seemed to work well with the barrel hot, but not so thoroughly or as fast as the Warthog. I actually used the Warthog to finish off the job which it again instantly did once the barrel was cooled. The Barnes probably would do fine if given a bit more time to soak, but I was ready to finish up and head on. I had tried to clean it before with the 50BMG on a previous outing and it just did not do the job.
It really is going to take someone with a borescope to objectively analyze what is happening in our bores, but that is I why I tried the pistol since I could see in it well and it seemed to work well on that. Anyway, that's it for what it's worth. I think it is worth some more testing.
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  #26  
Old 10-02-2006, 12:12 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A Bore Cleaner Test

[ QUOTE ]
Big Bore,
First, please disclose if you have any financial or personal interest in any cleaning product if you don't mind. That's not an attack, just basic protocol for discussion of scientific information with commercial interests.


[/ QUOTE ]

Very reasonable question.
Being an active 50 BMG shooter ( I own four 50 BMGs). (which seem to have the biggest problem with copper fouling) - a professional mathematician and amateur chemist - I've been testing/analyzing copper removal for a couple years. I have no fiscal association with any of the products. You are absolutely correct in protocol requiring full disclosure (apparently Roge K violated that rule). As a logician, I'm forced to point out making assumptions, conclusions based on financial connection is logically invalid (in fact the logic flaw is so common, it has a name - the motivation flaw. At no time did I discount Roge K's conclusions based on his obvious fiscal connection - I went the logicians route and exposed the flaws in his testing with basic ammoniacal chemistry principals.

One fundamental flaw with some of the test designs that I total missed (the admin sewwhat89 at PLRH pointed it out in his post HERE <font color="purple"> pristine copper bullets are far different than copper/powder residue forced into the lands/grooves/metal cracks/pockets - under high temp/pressure. </font>

The best cleaner I've found (I have not tested that many) is 26 degree baume aqueous ammonia. The 2nd best cleaner I've found is 22 degree baume I get for free (used Ammonia).

I have a paint shop with forced/filtered air, high quality respirators, nitrile gloves, goggles and other safety equipment. I don't recommend my approach for most folks.

I use my bore-scope before, during, after cleaning. I use a plastic jag when pushing ammonia (most serious gun guys would be embarrassed to own a plastic jag, but they work great with ammonia).

I will be ordering Warthog 1134 based on the information from Roge K . I appears to be the only product you can seal inside your barrel, leave it 24 hours and return to a copper free barrel. The could be very useful when I badly foul several of my 50 BMGs.

One concern I have about Warthog 1134 - aqueous solutions containing oxidizers are generally unstable and have a fairly short shelf life. Should Warthog 1134 be stored in the freezer? What is the shelf life?
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  #27  
Old 10-03-2006, 09:13 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 878
Re: 50 BMG as a copper remover.....

nothing fancy, just my name and location.
Im going to try and order my stuff tomorrow.
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  #28  
Old 10-07-2006, 09:52 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 50 BMG as a copper remover.....


[ QUOTE ]
The 50 BMG get the copper out right now. I do believe that the 50 BMG is twice as effective as Sweets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good post. Good info
That's what I've read from many high power experts. 50 BMG is very popular with the high power crowd.

Warthog contains an oxidizer. Oxidizers don't care what they oxidize (Fe + h2o + 02 = rust). I decided not to use my guns as guinea pigs as I don't want my barrels oxidized. (at least not by a cleaner).
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