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300 Varminter Update

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Unread 04-21-2008, 01:50 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,612
Wildcat, I am trying to figure this thread out. Are you saying that you are trying to get 4000 fps out of a 300 short mag? I looked at your specs and looked like all you did was tighten the neck. And it was mentioned maybe changing the rifling. If you want that kind of velocity then you need to start with a case that will safely get that kind of velocity. I have chronographed several short mags and none will approach the kind of velocities you mention safely. I am not trying to harras or condemn you. I am just trying to figure this thing out. It takes a 300 wby class cartridge to get you into the 4000 fps range with those bullets. The short mags are good for the velocity you can get out of a short action rifle but they are not designed to shoot with the wby line of magnums and will not even approach them safely. You probably had a good rifle before you shot the throat out of it trying to get 4000 fps out of something designed to shoot much slower. Let the gun shoot where it wants to shoot safely and set your click cheat sheet. If you must get 4000 fps then buy some sabos with the 22 caliber 55 grain bullets in there. That is the only way you will do it safely.
Predictions are difficult, especially when they involve the future

Unread 04-21-2008, 02:35 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841
Desert Fox,

Thanks for the realistic information from someone not wearing rose colored glasses.

I can swallow 3750 fps. Possibly even 3800 fps with somewhat of a decent case life. Over that it seems the results are exactly what most on this board suspected and in fact that seems to be the trueth.

Case life, very short with loads near 4000 fps. VERY SHORT!!! In fact loosening at times on the first firing, that tells me the pressures are well over 70,000 psi to get this primer pocket loosening. Probably over 75,000 psi.

Richard himself throws all his brass after three firings, I would bet a rifle that when he loads those cases for the third time, the primer pockets are already pretty much gone.

Now back to my main comment all along, how can anyone promote these loads when the fact remains that if they are chambered in a factory 300 WSM rifle, it would produce nothing short of very dangerous situation.

Weither you agree or disagree with the performance level of this rifle or the quality of Richards rifles, that is all besided the point. The only real point is that these loads are not safe in all 300 WSM rifles and that is a dangerous thing, no questions about it.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

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Unread 04-21-2008, 02:38 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,497
I am not trying to stir the pot here anymore but i was just thinking about this. Its been a while since i turned any necks on brass but i remember how much of a pain it was. if the brass is toast in 2-3 firings do you really wanna do that every time on new brass????? seems like alot of work for very little time spent getting to enjoy it
Steve Elmenhorst
Third Generation Shooting Supply
"Products for shooters, by shooters"
monday-friday 8:30-5:30 CST
Unread 04-21-2008, 04:31 PM
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,651
Ok, let me try to stop this hole thing. Can we all agree the 300 Varminter will push the 110 and 125grn bullets at 4000fps. Yes, I know, there will be higher pressures, however, it is capable of doing it. I will admit, that if you run the higher pressure loads, your brass will be toast after two to three firings.

This whole thing got ugly when someone said Richard was doing something unsafe. I took offense to that, because Richard was not able to defend himself. I think you guys would do the same thing if your rifle builder was insulted like that.

Also, I never said I was going to start out with the hottest loads possible. I will work up to a load I think is going to give me accuracy and velocity, if that happens to be 3900fps, than I will take that load. I know I will be able to push the 110grn V-Max at a safe 3900fps without really getting into those real high pressures. I will try the hotter loads, and if I ruin the brass after three loads, then I will just throw it away and buy some new brass. Hey, it's my rifle and if I want to shoot it hot, I will. However, I am going to shoot what ever load gives me the best accuracy and velocity togather.

P44, you don't have to defend me. I brought this on myself and knew what I was getting into by posting this type of build. I also know most of the guys are just trying to help, and I can respect that. Anyhow, I thank you for your support.


Last edited by wildcat; 04-21-2008 at 04:44 PM.
Unread 04-21-2008, 05:42 PM
Bronze Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 77
Kirby, you're a joke about this safe issue. Had you not insulted Richard, I would not even be posting. You are very un-professional in the gunsmithing world to attack another gunsmith about something that he is not doing. You don't think Richard gives his customers the correct info on how to load and shoot the rifle safely. Richard clearly states on the blog, that in order to get these types of velocites, this rifle has to be built to certain specifications. Wildcat, has stated that on numerous occations on his posts. Richard, can't control what someone does outside of that or what idiot misconstrues information incorrectly. How do you know what someone is doing with your rifles and cartridges once it leaves your shop. You don't, so is it you fault if someone does something unsafe, NO. What authority do you have to make such comments, about Richard. Seriously, who do you think you are. If I were Richard, I would sue your ass for SLANDER!!! Some people on this site have put you on a pedestal, and I have watched your ego get a little too big throughout the last couple of years. You made a comment about how I could never afford one of your rifles. If you only knew what I could afford it would blow your mind. You would never build a rifle for me because of the following reasons;
1. Your Rifles and Allen Mags have never had one article written about them.
2. You don't even have your on web page. I guess you can't afford one.
3. Know one outside this board has ever heard of your name or your Allen Mags.
4. Your rifles have never won any Bench Rest Championships.
5. Your Rifles have never won any 1000 yards Competitions.
6. Your rifles have never set any accuracy records.
Those are all true facts. However, the man you said is promoting an unsafe concept has done all of those things mentioned above. You have not done any of that. Your comments about Richard promoting an unsafe project, NOT TRUE, is very un-professional in the gunsmithing world. I guess that's the type of guy you are. You talk about someone behind there back on this site because you know your KIRBYITES (BountyHunter, AWESOME name for these guys) will come to your aide and that makes you feel powerful. Your a real class act, however, try that on a site like and see what happens to you. STOP BEING A FREELOADER AND CHEAP WAD! GET YOUR OWN WEB PAGE INSTEAD OF USING THIS SITE FOR FREE ADVERTISING. Very un-professional.

Unread 04-21-2008, 05:59 PM
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1
I am new to this site, but I have been reading on it for a long time. I know the history of this post. I am not picking anyone's side, I would have to agree with the information regarding pressure issues and brass life problems with the hotter loads. However, the comments made about Richard promoting an un-unsafe concept are a little un-professional and that should have not been said. Wildcat, was defending his gunsmith, and I don't see a problem with that. I think many of you would do the same thing. I would say both sides have made very valid points about the project.

Wildcat, I hope your project works well for you. I have heard excellent things about Richard's rifles. I am sure it's going to be a shooter.
Unread 04-21-2008, 06:34 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fort Shaw, Montana
Posts: 6,841
I never personally attacked Richard. I said its unsafe to recommend this level of pressure in a factory chambering that can be chambered in far more factory rifles out there then custom and be unsafe in every one of them. Simple point, and its a fact, not opinion.

I have no doubt that Richard gives his customers the correct information to use. Again, that in no way prevents the accidental chambering of one of these hot loads in a factory 300 WSM rifle. Again, you are missing the point in your attempt to personally attack me. Nice try but your making yourself look silly.

There are no factory Allen Magnum chambered rifles are there, how can a round for one of my chamberings make it into a factory rifle as there are none chambered for them. That is my point, please read this again until you understand it because your arguement is again, pointless!!!

If one of my chambered were offered in a factory rifle that was designed to handle 65K psi and I was recommending +75,000 psi loads, my recommendation would be just as unsafe, I do not do that, that can not happen, your arguement is pointless and unfounded.

YOu can not sue for slander for something that is true...... Think about it. If I got sued, I would get every major rifle maker that chambered a 300 WSM and put them on the stand to ask their opinion if their rifles would safely handle these loads. THere would not be one that said yes. THen I would get every ballistic expert from every company that offered load data for the 300 WSM and ask them the same question, again, every one would side with me and the suit would get laughed out of the courtroom.

Again, I am not saying or have never said Richards rifles are dangerous, nor that the loads used in his rifles are dangerous in those rifles, only that those loads would be dangerous in factory rifles, please read this again or until you understand this. Do you speak english? what are you having so much trouble understanding this?

I have NEVER made any comments about you could not afford one of my rifles. THat is a flat out lie my friend and you better put up the facts before you make comments like that. Get the proof here that I said you could not afford one of my rifles. Your not going to get away with this crap here, that is a lie and you have been called on it, produce the proof, NOW!!!

Now to answer your statements:

1. Your Rifles and Allen Mags have never had one article written about them. How sure are you about this comment? I would do some research before you make stupid comments about things you do not know.
2. You don't even have your on web page. I guess you can't afford one. I do not have a web site yet, why, because I am currently +50 rifles behind and right now my customers have to wait more then 8 months to get one of my rifles and I am not so greedy that I want to make them wait 2 years for one of my rifles. Again, you look like a fool. Appearently 10 years ago, there were no good riflebuilders out there because no one had a web page. I have way more business then I can handle and have for the last three years and as such have no desire to have a 2 year back log for my customers.
3. Know one outside this board has ever heard of your name or your Allen Mags. Again, what a load of crap. I have customers from Snipershide, 6mmbr, 24hour, Accuratereloading and As well as many from here on You are a close minded fool and know nothing of what you speak of but please keep making youself look silly. Right now 50% of my customers come from places other then LRH and many have never heard of LRH until I turn them onto it and all have thanked me greatly for pointing them toward this great resource.
4. Your rifles have never won any Bench Rest Championships. Don't build BR rifles. How could then win a BR match if I do not build BR rifles?
5. Your Rifles have never won any 1000 yards Competitions. I will refer you to #4 answer again!!!
6. Your rifles have never set any accuracy records. I will refer you to #4 AGAIN!!!
7. YOUR NOT PROFESSIONAL!!! That is your incorrect and uneducated opinion and I could find 500 great reviews for your opinion.

If I were such a freeloader, why would not everyone on LRH be asking me to be kicked off the board? Because someone agrees with me or I agree with them, why does that mean they are Kirbyites.

Is every customer of Richard Franklin a Richardite? Is every one of Shawn Carlocks customers a Shawnite? Are every one of Chris Mathews customers a Chisite? Are everyone of Darrell Hollands customers a Darrellite? Are every one of Greg Tannels customers a Gregite.

If given a chance, EVERY one of these mens customers and friends would back them up 100%, that is no different then me and I am sure no different then you and your friends, appearently I have more friends here in LRH..... Hard to imagine why that is.

YOu are a waste of my time and you have lost this debate because you bring nothing to it.

Again, its unsafe to recommend a 75,000 psi load for a factory chambering that could possibly be chambered in a factory rifle where it would be, WITHOUT QUESTION, DANGEROUS.

If you can manage to read and comprehend this, maybe you will understand my point.

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
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