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300 Varminter Update

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Unread 04-19-2008, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jwp475 View Post
Do you have any SOLID DATA or is it just talk, it takes money to buy Whiskey. I know that I have spoken to 3 Ballistic Labs and they all did not believe it to be possable with out exceeding SAAMI pressure limits....
Have you seen any Oehler 43 data yourself or is it just talk? I hear the whistle of gums flapping I think.

Do you or they have any solid data other than mystical phone calls with god knows what questions? NO NO NO NO because no lab has ever run pressure data on that light a bullet with zero freebore. All anyone has to do is look at the data out there such as the Oehler 43 tests run on the 300 WSM with extended freebores showing less pressure and speers site for instance to see that they all say lighter bullets equals less pressure.

Same naysayers will say that you cannot run the 210s at 2950-3050 out of the 300 WSM and I will show at least a dozen guys doing every weekend and brass lasting many many reloadings. I have got at least 4000 rds like that myself.

So the bottom line here is there is absolutely ZERO factual data to back up any Kirbyite claim. All we have is talk from the Kirbyites.

Lets look at the remington action which is now in the 338 Lapua. Now I will say I am the first to be "uneasy" to say the least with it in the 338 Lapua. Yet smiths on this board have done it and NOT one of the Kirbyites have jumped on them. NOT a damn one. The 338 is not officially SAAMI spec'ed yet it is often quoted at 68K, wooo that is 3K above the WSM. Now according to SAAMI the case has to be tested to 25% over that which puts it over 82K PSI for the WSM and 87K for the 338 Lapua. Do I want to load that, heck no.

So just why has the Kirbyites got their panties in a wad over this one gun. Answer is real simple. It was not invented by Kirby and it is a light low BC bullet. It really is that simple.

Just how is it that 30-40 of these guns are out there doing exactly as advertised without one incident and the ONLY naysayers are only here on this board (the Kirbyites). Why is that? Is everyone else just too stupid to see what the Kirbyites do?

If you are so sure of your data get your butt on 6mmBR spout your crap and we will all sell tickets to watch you get your butt handed to you. This would be more fun than anything lately. Will it happen, heck no because deep down you know it is all wild conjecture and you do not want to embarress yourself off this board. If you are so damn sure go for it, do not just jump on wildcat, grow a pair and play with the big boys.

Lets look at the facts. Not one of the naysayers claim to have shot it. Not one of them has even seen it, not one of them has any Oehler 43 pressure data or velocity data, yet they profess to be the all knowing gods of what is safe and not. Kirby's two points on what is dangerous and what FPS can be achieved is nothing more than wild speculation on his part. Rampant disbelief does not make it factual.

In reality all the naysayers are relying on is their leader to preach the "HIGH BC HEAVY BULLET FOR ALL OCCASIONS" gospel yada yada, and they all beat their tamborines and sings hyms of praise and join in pointing out the sinners of high velocity fragile varmint bullets at velocities Kirby does not believe.

Is Wildcat naive for continuing to post. Absolutey or just likes to stir the pot. I have mentioned to Wildcat all he is doing is baiting you guys and he should just forget it. Do not know if he enjoys it or what but the same goes for you all. Forget posting too until you can post show zero freebore Oehler 43 data until then you are guilty of the same things you accuse Wildcat of, at least he has 30 plus guys saying it is true who own the guns and not one of you has anything factual.

So JWP475, drink your whiskey because that is all you have got!


Last edited by BountyHunter; 04-19-2008 at 03:55 PM.

Unread 04-19-2008, 03:55 PM
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I talked to 3 Ballistic Labs (Barnes, Nosler, Sierra) and again I stated that they said not at SAAMI pressure...

range it,check the wind, dial in correction, aim and only one shot
Unread 04-19-2008, 04:15 PM
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My guess is Richard would regret having built the gun for Wildcat in the first place if he'd known Wildcat was going to start such a poor public relations 300 Varminter promotional crusade. He should have built one for Bountyhunter... no problems there.
Unread 04-19-2008, 06:35 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Alberta
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I've said very little about this whole 300 Varminter thing. To each his own. But it is too bad that Richard Franklin didn't choose to modify the 300 WSM cartridge design a bit to prevent anyone from trying to achieve these results in a factory rifle.
Unread 04-19-2008, 07:27 PM
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I have followed this and past threads a long time, I by no means am going to pick a side. I can understand Wildcat wanting a rifle the way he wants it. He is the customer and is the one with the money on the line. If a customer comes in my door and is set on a particullar bullet/cartrige/barrel, I build it for him because this is what he wants.

Wildcat, what I don't understand is why you would want to turn necks and only get two fireings per case?

I am also concerned about saftey, I would hate to see Wildcat get his rifle and not get 4000fps with Richards recomended load. Would you add a grain or two just to hit 4000fps, and prove to people you never met, that you were right? At the risk of damaging an expensive rifle or injuring your self?

I am also concerned with long term metal fatigue, continued exposure to overpressure loads, could someday lead to a catastrofic failure. It might not be with the first barrel but what about the second barrel on the reciever? After 4000 plus fireings of intense pressure many things are possible. At that point are you going to inspect the bolt lugs and reciever rings for any stess cracks after each cartrige is fired? Its like taking a ride on the traveling carnies farris wheel. You just hope it holds out until your off the ride, knowing in the back of your mind someday the thing needs to be scrapt, but the maintenance man will keep limping it along.

As far as this being Kirby Allens web page, that seems a little rediculous. Kirby has posted a ton of usful information over the years that had little or nothing to do with a gun he built. He has undertaken the development of his line of cartiges, and like any new cartrige he reports data and results. Seems to me the guys who own his rifles brag more about him and his cartriges, than Kirby does. (I might ad most of them own one of his rifles)

Will I ever chamber an Allen magnum? probably not. I'm more into efficiency and barrel life. But as I said before whatever the customer wants. I'm relativly new, and give Kirby, Shawn, Chris and Richard credit for the sucsess there having with their buisness.

Wildcat, We have all heard about your project by now. I truly hope you are happy with the results. Please be careful with your load development. When the guys on the board ask for first hand results their looking for;

1. Load data to include but not limited to, Powder charge wieght with vel. and e.s. with any pressure indicators associated with bolt lift and brass life.

2. Actual field shooting result which include temp, weather conditions, wind speed/direction.

3. Drift and drops at those conditions.

4. And of course, accuracy.

If you reach 3850fps with the light bullets your still going to have a varmit hammer, and will sleep a little better knowing your not running loads in the red zone.

Good luck,
Jim See
Unread 04-19-2008, 07:51 PM
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Bountyhunter....why dont you take one of wildcat's 300 varmiter rounds and fire it through your heavy gun and let us know the results. I would urge you to use a string to pull the trigger. That is my only hang up with the varmiter. I think Richard should make some change to the shoulder angle to prevent someone from making a mistake.

I am sure wildcat will be perfectly safe firing those same rounds in his custom built, slow twist, tight chambered, custom actioned rifle. Just because I disagree with his choice to leave the case alone doesnt mean I think he is not a super gunsmith an innovator or that he is stupid and it sure doesnt mean I am a "Kirbyite" even though I do hold him in high regard.

I dont have a problem with wildcat and think he is probably a nice guy. He always tries to be helpful. But, I am tired of hearing him brag about a gun he doesnt even have. If I got on here and posted the freakin specs on every rifle I have had built in the last year I would expect people would be tired of me talking about it. I would also expect someone to let me know I was making an ***** of myself so I would shut my big mouth.

I do not know why he cant do what most here do. One post asking questions about his build, either accept or decline the advice given. Then a follow up post showing a picture of the completed gun with a initial impressions/range report. Instead I have seen his spec sheet so many times that I can almost quote it and he doesnt have the gun yet.

I would put my primary gunsmiths work up against any smiths work with confidence. But, I dont drop his name everytime I come on this sight even though I would say that he is my friend, not just my gunsmith. Even if he wanted or needed work I do not think he would appreciate a neophyte such as myself dropping his name all the time. I doubt Richard Franlin would appreciate being the subject of this controversy when so much of it seems to be fueled by something other than his gunsmithing skills. If you think Richard Franklin appreciates being the topic of this thread, then wildcat is a real friend to him. If you dont think he would appreciate the controversy it has to make you wonder what kind of friend he is. I personally think he is dragging his gunsmith through this to feed his own ego.

BTW I run the 208 A-Maxs at 3000+ out of my 300WSM and have multiple firings on my cases. But, there aint no way I would think about firing one of those varmiter rounds through my gun. Okay I am shutting up and doing what I usually do with threads like this reading them in silence.
I admit that I know just enough to be dangerous.....but dangerous at ever extending distances.
Unread 04-20-2008, 10:33 AM
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Location: Wilmington NC
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You make an excellant point about me firing it on its face. However you miss the main difference and why that is not even a relevant suggestion. Richard is using a zero freebore and 15 twist. I have an extra long freebore for a FB 187 BIBs and have to seat 210s long to reach the lands and 10, 11 and 12 twists depending on which gun.

All I am saying until someone has something factual, other than "I thinks", compared to 30-40 guys who own the guns and say it works, this arguement does stand up.

How is remington putting out the Lapua with 3k more PSI if it is a danger? NO one has addressed that yet.

Are the naysayers going to post their letters to rem saying how stupid rem is based on "their intuitive" analysis and mystical verbal lab reports that do not exist in writing. Well guess what I am writing all three labs saying that they are being specifically quoted on the internet as it is clearly unsafe and asking who did the tests and asking for a copy. Think I will forward the results to Richard and recommend that he can give them to his lawyer and this thread.

If this truly is a safety issue, then let them write a scientific article based on facts, Oehler 43 pressure reading from one of Richards guns and post it on 6mm BR. I am sure that if it stands the test of the real ballisticians there, then we have something to talk about. Otherwise just unsubstantiated cheap shots on Richard Franklin and Wildcat. (However, wildcat might deserve a spanking for teasing them like this)

JWP as for this thread and others showing up in court as evidence agains Richard, fat chance. There sure to hell are not any expert witness ballisticians quoted here, just a bunch of WAGS, inuendo and hype which is not legal in court at least against Richard, as for others, what does your attorney say about it?

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