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1/4-1/2 MOA at 1k LR Rifle- Reality or Wishfull Thinking

 
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  #1  
Old 10-29-2009, 12:37 PM
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1/4-1/2 MOA at 1k LR Rifle- Reality or Wishfull Thinking

Here are some interesting stats from the IBS 1000 yard National Championships held in Iowa on Labor Day weekend.

To put this in perspective, these stats are "ONLY the top 20" of over 100 of the best 1k shooters with 17 lb light guns 20-42x scopes, 10-40 lb benchrests and 5 shot groups. Most are tight neck guns, with only .001-.0015 neck clearance, set up single shot with bullets soft seated in the lands in many cases. Bullets and cases sorted by weight, ogive, run on Juenkes etc.

The heavy guns range from 30-100 lbs and 10 shot groups.

So when you see the proverbial this hunting rifle off a bipod, "Shoots 1/4 MOA all day long", or " It holds 1/2 MOA at 1000!" take it with a grain of salt as most are in reality really posting "I shot this group one time, and therefore I am going to claim it it is always that, (before I have to shoot again)"!

Remember these stats below are the top 20 of over a 100 of the best.

BH

5 SHOT & 10 SHOT GROUP DATA, IBS 2009 1000 YD. NATIONALS, PELLA, IOWA

Light Rifle average group size, top 20 shooters:

80 five shot groups average fired by top 20 shooters---6.381"
Smallest group of those 80 groups-------------------3.342"
Largest group of those 80 groups-------------------11.181
(Richard Schatz, ND, shot smallest LG group @ 2.756".)
(James Isaacson, FL, shot largest LG group @ 23.844".)

Heavy Rifle average group size, top 20 shooters:
80 ten shot groups average fired by top 20 shooters----8.313"
Smallest group of those 80 groups-------------------4.322"
Largest group of those 80 groups-------------------14.092"

Heavy Rifle approximate average group size, not incl. DQ's:
257 groups--------------------------------------------11.909"
Smallest group (Tod Soeby, ND)----------------------4.322"
Largest group (William Ice, WV)--------------------27.077"

Last edited by BountyHunter; 10-29-2009 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:53 PM
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Re: 1/4-1/2 MOA at 1k LR Rifle- Reality or Wishfull Thinking

BH,
Those numbers always give good perspective-Thanks.

One thing about shooting at 1K matches is that you have to shoot under the conditions of the moment whether good or bad, and most guys here when going for "group" will likely be shooting a 3-shot group, instead of a 5-shot LG or 10-shot group Heavy Gun for IBS.

If you asked some of those guys what some of their 3-4 shot groups are, it can get pretty impressive at times.

IF, I could shoot 1/4 or 1/2 MOA @ 1K all day I would be more than pleased with myself. I am not holding my breath on this one though
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:57 PM
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Re: 1/4-1/2 MOA at 1k LR Rifle- Reality or Wishfull Thinking

Ernie

You are correct, many a time I have shot 3-4 shot groups at 1k of 1.5-2 inches and thought wish I could hold the whole group like that.

However, they have a seven minute period to shoot in.

in reality, I think that you take your "normal" 100 yard group in MOA and give it 2-3X for 1k and you will be in the ball park.

I was just posting this as to put some perspective as you say on all the 1/4 MOA or 1/2 MOA at 1K "internet" guns that you constantly see posted with no group photos other than the carefully selected "once in a time" group and then at 100 yards normally.

interesting tidbit--Never did see one of those miracle guns show up at a match to win and clean up even with $30,000 of prizes on the line.

BH
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Old 10-29-2009, 02:07 PM
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Re: 1/4-1/2 MOA at 1k LR Rifle- Reality or Wishfull Thinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by BountyHunter View Post
Ernie
Iinteresting tidbit--Never did see one of those miracle guns show up at a match to win and clean up even with $30,000 of prizes on the line.
BH
I just wish I had one of those guns and had the ability to read the conditions perfectly-Well, it is nice to dream

Can you imagine averaging a 2.5" group for a ten-shot string at 1,000 yards from field shooting conditions consistently?
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:31 PM
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Re: 1/4-1/2 MOA at 1k LR Rifle- Reality or Wishfull Thinking

Almost everyone who claims a 1/2MOA or a 1/4 MOA gun is doing so based upon performance at short range under good conditions.

The simple truth is that wind of any significant movement will push a bullet a lot, and since wind is not steady, that variation will easily take a 1/4 MOA gun at 100 yards to the results of 3 or 4 MOA gun at 1000. That doesn't make it a 4 MOA gun.

For instance, my F class 7mm WSM's bullet moves 53 inches, or 5+ MOA at 1000 yards if the wind is only 10 MPH. Add in just a little 12 MPH gust and it moves 1 whole MOA between shots! Drop it to no wind, and without correction, my shot is 4 feet from the X!

It might be a sub 1/4 MOA gun at 100 with no wind, but wind plays a huge part in long range shooting, and since wind is NEVER steady, the results we get vary widely!

Bill
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:51 PM
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Re: 1/4-1/2 MOA at 1k LR Rifle- Reality or Wishfull Thinking

I have customers all the time get excited and make a comment about how excited they are to get their 1/4 moa rifle. I always have to put the brakes on them and bring them back to reality. Generally the discussion goes like this:

"In ideal conditions with good ammo, a quality marksmen this rifle will be a 1/2 moa rifle for three shots." If any of these things are compromised in any way, there is no way you can expect to see consistant 1/2 moa groups.

I also tell them that if they are in the market for a rifle that will consistantly shoot 1/4 moa, they need to go to another smith because I will never garantee that for any of my rifles.

That said, I have seen many rifles and shot many three shot groups at 1000 yards that were WELL under 1/2 moa. Best to date is just over 1/4 moa for three shots. I do not shoot 5 shot groups, certainly do not shoot 10 shot groups. Imagine the bore temps on a 338 AM with 10 shot groups!!!

Generally, the "Come back down to earth" discussion generally ends with something like this:

"Find a good load, and get off the loading bench developing loads and get out and do practical field practicing. Develope and tweak your drop chart. Once that is all done, and you have a drop chart that is matched to your trajectory, if your a quality shooter and can dope conditions, you WILL be able to put that first shot within 1/2 moa of your point of aim. That is my goal for my customers rifles as they are big game rifles, not bench guns."

At 1000 yards, most conditions prevent anything even close to a 1/2 moa average and 1/4 moa groups are simply a rare treat. Do they happen with three shot groups, certainly they do, but to say a rifle does this all day long is simply admitting your either full of it!!!

I once shot a 4.3" ctc three shot group at an even mile, 1760 yards. I sold that rifle and commented that the rifle had 1/2 moa accuracy potential even though it has shot a legit 1/4 moa group at one mile. I probably could have shot a dozen more groups that day and not broke 10" ctc.

Sometimes the planets align and special things happen. Thats why the FCSA gives out screamer patches for anything under .6 moa. It just does not happen all that often and its special when it does. Those that shoot enough and are honest enough with themselves and have no need for false ego boosts have no need to brag about their rifles, unfortunately, some out there still have this need.
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Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

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  #7  
Old 10-30-2009, 08:12 PM
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Re: 1/4-1/2 MOA at 1k LR Rifle- Reality or Wishfull Thinking

Kirby,

Thank you, much better said than I did!

I'm always amazed at the rhetoric I hear about this rifle or that rifle and the results it posts!

I do know my rifle is capable of more than I am, and I'm happy with what it gives me. That should be everybodies goal!

Bill
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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

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http://waitesandbalances.blogspot.com/
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