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Wilcat Bullets...Why haven't BC's been posted?

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Unread 07-20-2005, 08:32 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: on the rifle range in Utah
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Well said Buffalobob, well said indeed.
Find it
Range it
Click it
Pull it
Dump it

If it's not far, it's boring.
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Unread 07-20-2005, 08:39 AM
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Well, this will be my last post on this topic. Take this for what it is because thats all you will get(John M.)

I am a custom rifle maker, some rifle makers specialize in tactical rifles, some specialize in match rifles, some in extreme range rifles.

I specialize in big game rifles. I am a big game hunter, I am not a compeition shooter or a tactical shooter. As such when I started designing the Allen Magnum wildcats, I wanted to offer todays hunter with a rifle, cartridge combo that would provide true 600 yard performance in a sporter weight rifle(7 to 9 lbs).

I tested several rounds and was impressed by their performance with the standard bullets on the market. But, Then I contacted Richard Graves who was referred to me by another shooter. Ordered in some 300 gr ULD RBBTs as I had just gotten my 338 Kahn heavy rifle up and running. Had been using 300gr SMKs in this rifle and wanted to see what the 300 gr ULD RBBT would do.

Got them in and tested them and they just flat out shot better then the SMK. THey also dropped less. From my trajectories, I had to use a BC of .795 for the SMK and .815 for the WIldcat. The reason I selected the Wildcat was because IT HELD TIGHTER GROUPS! Not because of its BC. FOr all practical purposes they are very close to identical ballistically.

So seeing this I desided to ask Richard about building some heavy jacketed 257 bullets. He agreed instantly which suprised me. In fact it was like this was his personal project. I was impressed. Got those bullets, 130 gr BCFBHP and tested them in my 257 STW.

Used them for the 2004 big game season and was very happy but then after the season, Richard and myself decided to push things harder. I would get these e-mails all the time asking,"What do you think about a 145 gr 257 bullet, I think I can build one??!!" and "What about a 156 gr ULD RBBT in 257??"

My initial thinking was this guy is off his rocker. There is no way a 156 gr ULR RBBT 257 bullet will work. Richard was RIGHT, I was wrong.

He was also very involved in the design of every Allen Magnum that has been released or in the works, not just as a bullet maker but we have used each other as a sounding board for different ideas and with both of our ideas have come up with some NEW rounds that are what they are.

I freely admit that I have fully tested the Allen Magnums that are out now with factory bullets and will also admit that my Wildcats alone are impressive but nothing compared to loading the same rounds with Wildcat bullets. The difference was dramatic. I will not say accuracy was dramatically better because the rifles tend to be pretty accurate with most quality bullets but there were other things that stood out.

Mainly Richard willingness to help me out tweaking anything I wanted or telling me I was full of S___ when I would ask for something unrealistic.

This continued through the 270 Allen Mag and as with the 7mm Allen Mag as well as it will with all the ones to come.

If I offended with my posting of the Allen Magnum rounds, I want everyone to know the only reason I was posting them was to report on the performance of a new level of big game rifle performance as well as post as much PRACTICAL, real world data as I would work up on these bullets which have MADE my round.

What I need as a custom rifle builder building rifles for the big game hunter is for me to do my job, which is build a rifle that will but the bullet where it needs to be at any practical range with a quality shooter and quality ammo.

The hard job is designing a bullet that will survive the initial jaunch for one thing, and then perform on close range impacts adiquately as well as expand at longer ranges as well.

Richard has done this and on every request has taken it on like it was his own personal project.

My need for a BC value is a nessesity just long enough for me to develope an accurate drop chart and then I could care less what the BC is. I think this is the thinking of most guys shooting long range.

I guess I will admit that I do not know the scientific BC of Richards bullets, Don't care. All I know is they shoot extremely flat. They perform well on game and they are very accurate.

Does this make them the best bullets in the world. No.

But in several cases, they are the only bullets in existance and they are truely impressive bullets.

So John M. My final reply to you is this. I have proven these bullets to myself over and over and over and over again. There is no more required testing in my mind to know these are quality bullet with high BC values and good performance on game. I also know Richard Graves has 100% of my trust and respect as a bullet maker and above that and vastly more importantly then any damn bullet or Rifle or BC, is that he is a great man and someone I am very honored to call a true friend.

So if you are directing your discrediting comments toward me and my Allen Magnums. Fine, I could care less. I have never embelished any facts, I have never made up any field reports and soon there will be vastly more rolling in from guys on this board. I could care less what you think of me or my products. They work, Flat out. THey are extreme to the max and in some cases not for everyones level of loading experience but when used correctly, there is NOTHING in any of their respective calibers that will stand with them. WHY, one simple reason.

Wildcat Bullets

I'm done with this waste of time. I have some 270 AM barrels to fit to a couple of Savage receivers for some extremely quality guys that are looking only to push their personal limits as far as performance at long range.

You see this is what Richard Graves and I live for, offering the best product we can to those that really want something NEW and aggressive to be able to push that performance envelope.

SO you you John M. No more flaming toward you my friend. YOu are free to say and think what you want about me, no problem as I suspect I will never have to be bothered by your company on a professional or private setting.

The bullets speak for themselves, I guess this is my point and I have stated this all along. Use them and you will see, don't and you won't. Nothing off my back or Richards believe me.

As far as pushing my Allen Magnums to hard. Well, there are alot of guys that frequent LRH with these rifles on order. All I am doing is basically updating them as to the performance their soon to be built rifles will produce.

If you will notice, I have roughly 1200 posts logged on LRH. OF those I bet 1000 of them are nothing more then answering questions, asking questions or just generaly BS about hunting, shooting and other firearm related topics with nothing Allen Mag related.

If you are offended by my Allen Mags, I guess I would tell you sorry but I have done nothing that anyone else has not done with their favorite long range rifles. Only difference is I designed the rounds and built the rifles.

WHy is that any different then someone making a 1000 yard kill with a 6.5-284. The reason, because it has my name on it right. And I must be biased because of that.

If you search my posts I report successes and failures. If you read the post on the Mouflon Ram hunt you will realize that is true.

You see what you want and you read what you want. So to make you feel better, here is a revised list of BC values for the Wildcat Bullets:


100 gr BCFBHP..........0.150
130 gr BCFBHP..........0.200
142 gr ULD RBBT........0.350
156 gr ULD RBBT........0.390

169.5 gr ULD RBBT......0.335

300 gr ULD RBBT........0.400
350 gr ULD RBBT........0.500

Well the 350 gr 338 bullet may still be a bit inflated but we simply need to have a high BC to sell bullets and rifles, their performance in the field certainly will not prove their worth.

So there, we can all get back to business knowing that Sierra and the Cat bullets are still the kings of the long range world. Glad we got that crisis under control before the earth went out of alignment [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]!

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
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Unread 07-20-2005, 08:56 AM
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,922
Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Well, put. Especially the part about fitting the 270 bbls [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Again, I would like to apologize to all for my childish remarks and personal attack on John M. I think I did exactly what he wanted me to do. My temper sometimes gets the best of me though.

One thing is for sure. I'll bet he burned a few bridges over the past two days. I just hope I haven't done the same.

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Unread 07-20-2005, 09:15 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1,307
Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

I know i'll get hung for this one, as always...

Note to self and new posters...

Dont EVER question claims, or present unpopular facts regarding:
WIldcat Bullets
group measurement
photographic techniques

For fear of tar and feathering...

Perhaps Len should add a subforum for only POSITIVE comments regarding the above, no need to create discussion and differing viewpoints based on silly facts that may go against some opinions, economic advancement etc.

It is a sad day when presented facts, and a QUEST for facts regarding certain aforementioned items gets stamped out and berated by a mob of apostles.

JB [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
Check it Out!!--> Shoot the Smack The Smiley Match...and help
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Unread 07-20-2005, 09:31 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1,307
Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Kirby -- if you come up with an approx BC on the heavy 6mm's please let me know, i may be interested, as the BR i am building will have a throat that can handle them (unlike my current throat on my 6.5 which is a bit short [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] for the 142 )

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Unread 07-20-2005, 09:40 AM
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,922
Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

I don't think you'll get hung.

One thing to note is how you ask things. You don't have to attack someone's credibility to get information, which is exactly what the first post on this thread did. A little trust and respect can go a long way. I don't think the QUEST that is being stamped out, it is the attitude and disrespectful manner of some of those on this quest.
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Unread 07-20-2005, 09:51 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1,307
Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Bill...Understood -- just seems when the mentioned subjects come up, the threads almost always degrade into chit. And it is only on this forum.

again, this was more a general observation than specific to this thread.

Also my comment is not meant to reflect badly on Richards bullets either, as im sure they are great, i am just not set up to use them quite yet. Hope to be soon.

Check it Out!!--> Shoot the Smack The Smiley Match...and help
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