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Wilcat Bullets...Why haven't BC's been posted?

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Unread 07-19-2005, 01:39 PM
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Lerch, every bullet allegedly has a higher BC than any other that has ever been made in the same caliber/weight?
Super Accurate? Deadly on game at all ranges?

That would qualify as the greatest bullets ever made!
Even if it was never worded exactly that way.

Ergo, if someone makes such a claim, then back it up.

I have a new sportscar I invented that goes 0-60 in 2.4 seconds! But I'm not going to prove it to you, go buy one and time it for yourself.

Give me a break!

That Burger shop in Idaho may have the best burgers, but Burger King will make more $$$ because the let you have it "your way". It's called business!

In business if you make a BOLD CLAIM then you back it up.

Stop dancing around what I'm saying its a simple point.
Screw this "He needs the time to make bullets" crap. A business owner wears many hats and marketing is one such hat.
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Unread 07-19-2005, 01:45 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Potomac River
Posts: 5,070
Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

John M

This is really not true

Richard does not make these claims. In fact he will tell you which of his bullets will not work on what and when and where. He really tries hard to not sell you something that is not what you need.
The Smokin Fur Rifle Club
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Unread 07-19-2005, 02:05 PM
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

John M.

Your comments prove your level of research on the subject and those that have been putting up with me for the last year posting NONSTOP about the performance of the Wildcat Bullets know full well you have no idea what your talking about.

Let me state this as simply as I can for you. This is my ballistic load development process. I develope a load that is consistant in velocity and in accuracy at 500 yards. Looking for grouping in the 1" to 2" range at 500 yards with my Extreme Sporter rifles, All of which are loaded with Wildcat Bullets and will continue to be.

I then dial in the scope to print at a certain point at 100 yards and then take bullet drop measurement using this same hold at 100, 300, 500 and either 800 or 1000 yards depending on the purpose of the rifle and chambering.

I then sit down on the computer with my drop data, velocity data and start tweaking the ballistic programs until the model trajectory matches the data points in my drop tests.

I then print out the entire drop chart out to how ever far I want to test or shoot and head back to the range. I pick targets of opportunity at unknow ranges. Range the target look it up on the drop chart, either dial in for the shot or find the appropriate reference hold point and shoot at the target. Generally several shots. I log the impacts of these shots at these ranges. Find another target at a different range, repeat the process and log the data. Find another target, repeat process and log data.

Then I return to the computer and further tweak the ballistic program until my drop chart is even more finely tuned to the actual flight of the bullets. When I can go out and punch a one gallon milk jug full of water at any range from 100 to 1200 yards in good shooting conditions I figure my drop chart is close enough.

From then on its just range practice, lots of it, on paper, on natural targets, on gallon milk jugs.

Yes thats six differnet loads testing the 100 gr Bonded Core FBHP.

Well, looks like the 156 gr ULD RBBT Wildcats shoot alright.

This is range testing the 257 Allen Mag with the same load above. Could care less what the BC is. When I plug .820 in the ballistic program, I went 7 for 8 on milk jugs from 580 to 800 yards. One miss was by about 2" as I did not catch the breeze that came up.

How about some 450 and 930 yard bullet drop testing with the 169.5 gr ULD in my 270 Allen Mag. This was the second and final outting testing the drop chart before my Mouflon Ram hunt this spring. Using a BC of .750 in the ballistic program. Do you think this is close enough to call an accurate BC!! By the way, this was with a 4.5-14 scope using the mil dots for hold points.

Lets see, close enough to hit anything from a field mouse on up in size at 100 yards using this BC value.

Well, at this range looks like anything the size of a chuck or larger would be in real danger. Again, same BC. No dial in on the scope, just look up range, find the proper hold point and shoot. Far to simplistic to work!!! Yes, thats less then 6" at nearly 1000 yards with a sporter rifle. Looks like the Wildcats shoot well and the BC is pretty close for getting on target anyway, may not be scientificly pure though!!!

Lets see and some big boys:

Now lets talk about on game testing!!!! That of course I have not done any of!

Last fall, 257 STW 100gr BCFBHP Wildcat 3950 fps. My wife and her 81" B&C pronghorn. One shot, one kill, perfect bullet performance.

Last Fall, my 152" B&C whitetail, taken with same 257 STW rifle but loaded with the 130 gr BCFBHP. Just under 400 yards and was on a property line so I needed to drop him on the spot. The Wildcat bullets had proven themselves in accuracy and I was totally confident taking a shot to place the 130 gr Wildcat dead center in the bucks white throat patch. The result was obvious!

I also took a whitetail doe at 508 yards last year with a solid shoulder hit. Performance was great on the lighter doe but studying the results led Richard to design a heavier jacketed 130 gr Bonded Core FBHP specifically for my upcoming Allen Mag for use on heavy mature bucks. BC actually dropped from .550 to .500 with this heavier bullet which I reported at the time. Think Sierra would do that for you??? Think Nosler would claim a drop in BC in an attempt to get a better performing bullet on game????

This Spring. Field testing my 257 Allen Mag. First big game animal harvested with the 257 Allen Mag and the 156 gr ULD RBBT. Yes the same one extensively tested above!! The drop chart was plenty accurate with the .820 BC used to drop this buck at 500 yards with one and only one shot. The guide had never heard such an authoritative bullet impact from any big game rifle before and that was with a 15 mph tail wind. He said it sounded like a freight train hit the buck. The results looked that way as well. Why, Extreme retained velocity and energy, from what, EXTREME BC values!!!

Same trip, frist big game animal taken with the 270 Allen Mag with the 169.5 gr ULD. Range was not long, in fact quite short at only 75 yards in heavy cover but the big 169.5 gr ULD RBBT made a 1/2" entrance hole, and a 1" exit hole and dropped the ram on the spot with a lung impact. Not only does Richard build bullets for extreme range hunting, they also must perform at close range as well. Yes we actually tested this as well believe it or not!!!

This Spring. Mouflon Ram hunt in Idaho. Used the 270 Allen Mag to harvest this world class ram at 610 yards. Drop chart stated the second mil dot down was the exact hold for 610 yards. Looks like the .750 BC worked pretty well on that one too. Ram was facing directly toward me and dropped to the shot.

This is one of two one shot kill on chucks at ranges of 1098 and 1114 yards using my Extreme Sporter in 270 Allen Mag. Again using the same drop chart with the .750 BC. Seems to be pretty damn accurate even to these ranges. Only reason there have not been more is because I have been limited in the trips I can go out on and the ones I have taken lately we have been shooting in the 2050 to 2173 yard range, yes with the 270 Allen Mag Extreme Sporter with the 169.5 gr ULD. I'll be damned if the BC does not even hold up to that range.

This is just over the last 8 months my friend. For every picture you saw, there have been hundreds of rounds fired down range in load development, velocity testing and range testing.

I don't have to back up any of my claims, you just need to learn to read!!

Before you start acting like you know all about Richard and myself, I want you to know something, first off, I do not endorse a product unless I have tested the HELL out of it and proven it works. I report my successes as well as my FAILURES and always have and always will.

Richard is the same way, if something is wrong or does not perform, we take every measure to fix or adjust things to solve the problem.

There are two products I fully endorse as a custom rifle builder, Wildcat Bullets and Lilja barrels, thats IT. So before you get up on your little soap box and start making claims agains a fine man like Richard Graves, realize that when you do, you better be ready to face what you will have coming back at you. Not from Richard but his friends.

Question, me all you want, I could care less, I will just keep going out and getting results exactly like I have been as will all the others that want to take the RISK and try some of the Wildcat Bullets.

If your not up to this kind of RISK, by all meansstick with the standards, but don;t be suprised when your lacking in performance compared to someone using Wildcat Bullets.

Now that I have wasted more of my customers time then you are worth I'll close this by making one comment,

"Know what your talking about before YOU make CLAIMS my friend. IT may come back to bite you in the end!"

Kirby Allen
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

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Unread 07-19-2005, 02:10 PM
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,922
Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

John M.,

Go into NYC and buy yourself a hooker. Judging by your foul mood and contempt for others, you obviously haven't been laid in awhile!!!

As I said before, Wildcat Bullets is owned by Richard Graves. He has a right to run his business however he wants. Like I said if you don't like it, don't buy them!!! I happen to like Richard's matter of factness.

BTW, I've found that if you trust and respect people first, you usually get the same in return. If you call them a liar, you usually get nothing. At least nothing good. I wouldn't expect an @$$clown such as you to understand this though.

Have an outstanding day,
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Unread 07-19-2005, 02:11 PM
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: El Reno, OK
Posts: 1,497
Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Were not comparing corvettes to boat tail bullets here.

The simple fact that I see is that it was gas bags like you that threw a hissy fit in the first place and got Richard to stop publishing a projected BC back when he was more than happy to tell people what the thought the BC would be near. And he always worded it like that, A PROJECTED BC.

And he has stated before that not all of his bullets preform great on all game. I have a 30 cal bullet of his now that he has repeatedly told me not to use on my upcoming moose hunt because it is too light of a jacket. So there you go.

What Richard is is a very nice outdoorsman with a lot of knowledge and abiltity. He has been extremely helpful to those of us that aren't jerks to him and always lends a open ear to any problem we might have.

You seem to be a very disgruntled person who despite having been supplied an answer to his question several times over continues to try and start arguements with people who tried to respond kindly to you at first. Richard has not made claims that his bullets are the greatest bullet ever known, as a matter of fact I don't know anyone who has. Many of us have said that we really like these bullets and think they offer ability beyond that of traditional bullet makers, and we have tried to back these claims up. Richard does "let you have it your way", he will build any bullet for you in any design for any rifle that he is capable of making. I think maybe you need to calm down and realize that many of us have tried to answer this question for you already.
Steve Elmenhorst
Third Generation Shooting Supply
"Products for shooters, by shooters"
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Unread 07-19-2005, 02:20 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 877
Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

hey 4ked, that was a good post... but I have a little different take on it...
You see there a place in my town that makes a good burger too. Every lunch you can find it filled with little old ladies, oilfield roughnecks, and ranch hands. Its pretty tastey for sure, made about any way you want. Lets say that the the patty supplier says they are half pound patties. Weight, a number that can be measured. Not by hefting it in a hand, not how full it makes you feel, by putting it on a scale. Now lets suppose that several guys love those burgers so much that when anybody has the slightest question about them, they pounce all over the questioner for no reason at all, willing to defend their beloved burgers to the death. Maybe its that the cheeze might not be real cheese... maybe its that the tomatos aren't really fresh from the garden... maybe its that the burger isn't really a half pound burger. It shouldn't make the cook a least bit nervous to slap a burger on a scale... after all, they haven't been saying its a half pound burger, its the customers.
And then one day somebody shows up with a scale, and suddenly, all of the people who were taking about their wonderful half pound burger start finding excuses not to put theirs on the scale.

Is the weight of a hamburger patty really important?


Is the BC of a bullet marketed as a longrange performer important?


There are people willing to test these bullets, and the fact that those who have them are unwilling to test them says something.

Maybe its not Richards job... mabe its not Richards obligation to test his bullets. Maybe its not Kirby's job to test the only bullets he reccomends for use in his magnums. But if I were a bullet maker, it would be worth it to me to drop 20 bullets in the mail. if I were a gunsmith who claimed performance above and beyond what conservative ballistic experts suggest is possible due to a bullet avalable from a single source, it would be worth it to me.
Any reason you can attempt to articulate not to spend the cost of 20 bullets for scientific data is bull [censored]. Plain and simple.

For those of you who are considering posting based on your opinion, do so with prudence. When all of this started some months ago, and I got people who were interested in testing the bullets I had on order, my order was canceled, and I was told to find bullets somewhere else. If you are interested in testing wildcats, or acquiring wildcats for testing, choose your words carefully... or you just might never see them at all.

yada yada yada...Bla bla bla... how many times do we have to do this before somebody is willing to settle this with actual scientific data?
Im betting at least a time or two more.
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Unread 07-19-2005, 02:56 PM
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

I think its amusing that the comment is made that these bullets need to be proven that they are better then the already established long range bullets on the market.

The way I see it, there is no comparision out there for the bullets I am using in my Allen Magnums wildcats.

Correct me please if I am wrong. Where is the 107 gr class .224" bullet out there that I will be able to test against when my 224 Allen Mag is up and running here in a couple months?

Who makes the 130 gr BCFBHP .257 bullets that I can test head to head with the 130 gr BCFBHPs from Wildcat??? Anyone??

Who makes the 142 gr ULD RBBT 257 bullets so that I can test them against the 142 gr 257 ULD RBBT bullets??

Who makes the 156 gr class .257" bullets so that I can get some and compare them side by side against the Wildcat Bullets and the performance I am getting in my 257 Allen Mag?

Who makes the 170 gr ULD RBBT in 6.5mm that I can compare directly with the 169.5 gr ULD RBBT that I will be testing soon in my 6.5mm Allen Mag???

Who maked the 170 gr class ULD RBBT bullets so that I can compare them to the 169.5 gr ULD RBBT driven to 3400 fps in my 270 Allen Mag, I would love to test them head to head.

Yes I will be able to test the 175 gr ULD RBBT directly agains the 175 gr Sierra MK in 7mm and will be doing so as soon as I get the bullets from Richard, BUT, who makes the 200 gr ULD RBBT bullets that I can test head to head against The Wildcat 200 gr ULD RBBT.

I am probably going to get in trouble for this but who makes a 30 cal bullet that is vastly heavier then even the old 250 gr Sierra MK bullet? Where can I get them besides Richard, Please tell me and I will test them!!!

Who makes a 350 gr ULD RBBT in 338 so that I can test them directly head to head with the 350 gr ULD RBBT from Wildcat in 338?? Where can I get them??? PLEASE TELL ME!!!

How will make me a 410 to 425 gr 375 bullet with a ULD RBBT design??? Think Sierra will?? Richard has already told me its done as soon as I get the 375 Allen Mag ready to roll.

Who will build a 450 gr ULD RBBT lead core 408 bullet. Is Sierra doing this, is Hornady coming out with a new A-Max to make the 408 Chey tac into the round it really should be, NO!!! But Richard has invested in all these dies and point forming dies to build what ever we as crazy long range shooters want to try.

So if he does not have the time to test every bullet he makes so you can have a freakin three digit number, god help him because his bullets simply can not be as good as they are stated to be, again, not by him but by people that are acutally using them and putting them in the air.

So as soon as you can supply a company that I can purchase the above bullets from and test head to head with the Wildcat bullets I would be more then willing to do so, I will even buy them for testing and not ask for FREEBIES!!

Point is, for the bullets I am using, there is no comparision to compare them to. End of story.

Sure equal bullet weights may be similiar with other VLD bullets on the market. I have tested the 142 gr 6.5mm ULD RBBT head to head with the 140 gr Berger, 140 gr A-Max and 142 gr Sierra in my 6.5-06 AI and with all having the exact same point of impact at 200 yards, the 140 gr A-Max and Sierra drop more at 500 yards then the Berger and Wildcat bullets.

The difference between the Berger and Wildcat is very close so basically the Wildcat 142 ULD RBBT is at least the full equal to the Berger 140 gr VLD which is one of the highest BC bullets in this caliber made.

Now lets compare the 150 gr ULD RBBT, 160 gr ULD RBBT, 165 gr ULD RBBT and the 169.5 gr ULD RBBT from Wildcat. As soon as those 170 gr Berger VLDs get in I will test them.

I have also tested the 300 gr Sierra MK in 338 head to head with the 338 ULD RBBT and at 500 yards the Wildcat has roughly 2" less drop then the Sierra. At 1000 yards its about 8" less drop then the SMK. This is with both with the same 300 yard zero. Are they close, yes, does this amount of difference mean anything at long range, probably not but, the Wildcat will average 1.2" groups at 500 yards compared to 1.8" groups for the SMK. That does make a difference in my book. They shoot better and I know they shoot better because I have tested them head to head and proven that in my rifle they are a better bullet. Why can you guys not understand this simple fact. You have to see how they perform in your rifle and if you weren't such dinks to Richard he would more then be willing to send you all the bullets you wanted for testing.

I guess testing two bullets head to head and measuring which one drops more over long range is still not scienticifally accurate though.

All I have to do is have a potential customer try out one of my rifles with the Wildcat Bullets and its basically a done deal.

Give me 6 months and there will be alot of guys on here reporting more and more on the Wildcat bullets. Even then you will not be happy as you will not be able to open a BOOK and read a printed BC value.

Your loss, this is getting real tiring and old. Catch up with the times boys or get the hell out of our way!

Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)

Allen Precision Shooting
Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

Farther, Faster and Flatter then ever before.

Web Page:
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