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Wilcat Bullets...Why haven't BC's been posted?

 
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  #8  
Old 07-19-2005, 08:53 AM
 
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Ditto what Ric said.

I think richard is a nice guy trying to make the best bullets around. Hats off to him. I do not knock him one bit.
I hope he succeeds as I'm sure we all do.

I'm not getting personal, I'm strictly talking business.
I own my own company and the biggest part on any company is marketing. Marketing bullets includes testing and reporting BC's. I'll tell you that Cauterucio's BC's are as right on as they can be. Bob, also makes only a handful of calibers. He's an older gentleman and does it more out of Hobby than anything else. Richard is looking to build a business that produces an vast array of calibers and in doing so HE must provide ballistic data.

In my conversations with Richard he HAS stated BC values. He did say they were estimates but he implied that testing would occur after he made them.

There is a company called "North Fork Bullets" who makes big game bullets in various calibers and they do not state BC or even care to. The difference is that they are being marketed for their ability to make quick kills not long range accuracy.

Richard is making bullets for long range and the BC estimates are higher than every other bullet ever made in equal caliber and weight!!!
If you are going to make those claims then you MUST back them up with real testing data or BS will be called. Like it or not.
I hate repeating myself but I have to, and I must shout as well:
IF YOU CLAIM YOUR BULLETS ARE THE BEST LONG RANGE BULLETS THEN BC TESTING MUST BE DONE!

Kirby, don't take it personal.
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  #9  
Old 07-19-2005, 08:59 AM
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Ric Horst,

AM I wrong in the comment that anytime you buy a box of bullets you have never shot in your rifle that you are running the risk that they will not shoot well in your rifle???

It does not matter the make of the bullet there is always that risk that you may be wasting your time and money on testing a new bullet.

I just do not understand your reasoning here. Its not like the Wildcat Bullets are extremely expensive, only slightly more then comparible weight Sierra MKs.

You have to develope a new load for any new bullet so I just do not see your point with the comment you made. Thats like saying you will not buy a pound of powder unless youare gauranteed to get the exact fps listed in the loading manual??!!

As Big Bore has properly stated, Richard is an extremely busy guy just like everyone on this site is. He is a full time bullet maker again who offers more bullet options then anyone else I am aware of. On top of that, he is a full time farmer which takes up more time then most people could ever realize.

Having the time and resources to test every bullet he produces just simply is not practical from a shop the size of his.

This is why he relys on his customers to test his bullets and report back to him with all data they are able to find out. BC, velocity potential, amount of fouling with a certain bullet, accuracy and terminal performance. IF you want to be part of this development then order a box of bullets, test them and let Richard know how they shoot.

IF you do not want to order some of his bullets and do the exact same thing you would do anyway with any bullet you have not tested then don't, no big deal.

Just knowing you from your posts I know for a fact that any bullet you load and shoot is fully tested and that you do not rely on published data to develope your ballistic charts. Its no different here.

The main issue is that Wildcat Bullets is not a household name like Sierra so guys want proof before they will try the bullets. Well, its coming and has already came for many of his bullets. IF the 224, 257, 6.5mm, 270, 7mm and 338 all shoot well and produce the lowest amount of bullet drop available, what reasoning do you have to think the 30 cals would be any different [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]!

Kirby Allen(50)
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Home of the Allen Magnum, Allen Xpress and Allen Tactical Wildcats and the Painkiller Muzzle brakes.

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Web Page: www.apsrifles.com

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  #10  
Old 07-19-2005, 09:13 AM
 
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Kirby, these claims about these bullets are so great that testing must be done!

THESE ARE BOLD CLAIMS! BACK THEM UP!

Stop talking like a polititian.

Why don't YOU get them tested? You link them to your "257 allen magnum" you probably make more money hawking your rifle than Richard makes with the bullets. You have an economic interest here as well.

Also, you posted BC's on this thread so matter-of-factly even though there has never been real testing.
Plus this is the FIRST time you did so.
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  #11  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:01 AM
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

There is a hamburger shop where I used to live. They serve the hamburgers with or with out cheese, pickles and onions. They dont have bacon or lettuce or tomato. They dont serve hot dogs or chicken or fries. They have a very loyal following. In fact the little shop is standing room only at lunch EVERY DAY. If you ask them they will say they serve the best hamburger in town. If you ask the customers they will say the same thing. Can they point to any formal survey? No. Do they care? No. If you don't believe them or if you want lettuce on your burger then they are not the shop for you. It is your right to shop elsewhere. But if you dare to try a burger you might find, as so many others have, that the burgers are the best you have ever had. You may discover something fantastic.

Hope this helps. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

BTW the shop is Hudsons Hamburgers (Huddies) in Coeur d'Alene Idaho. Est in 1930 something if I remember right.
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  #12  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:12 AM
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Just measured a few 142gr 6.5 ULDs Richard sent me. I should add, he sent these samples to me free. Nice fellow.
Running the numbers through MPM, JBM, QuickDesign, and a spreadsheet of mine, I get:
BC= .624 @ Mach3(3350fps ICAO)
BC= .596 @ 3000fps ICAO

This pretty much matches Berger 140VLDs(depending on the lot). Also, this software does not take the rebated boat tail effect into account, and assumes a linear BT angle. I don't have a clue as to this effect one way or the other, and would like to know. I don't think it's huge though.

Thats one bullet. One guess.
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  #13  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:35 AM
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

Thanks for your post.I have been trying to think of a way to put the nay sayers in their place, well done.I went to a rifle rodeo in June, 3 of the 4 buckle winners were using Wildcat Bullets not one cared about B.C..The non winners were convinced that maybe they should give them a try.
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  #14  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:40 AM
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Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

John M.

And anyone else that thinks Richardís bullets have to have data reported for them because you are too lazy to do it yourself, or donít know how.

You state that certain companies give you BC data and that makes you happy. I guess it doesnít take much to make you happy because if you take the listed BC figures by the major companies as gospel and load and shoot accordingly then you are simply showing your lack of knowledge or commitment to the long range game.

You stated that Cauterucios BC's are real. Sierra's are real. Is this just your belief in what they say or did you actually test them? I would guess that you are just accepting what they say. Too bad, because if you had tested them you would be far better off.

Listed or posted BC claims by any company are simple not accurate 100% of the time in everyoneís gun, under all conditions. Yet you seem to imply that you live and die by whatever the larger companies tell you.

You state that claims have been made. I have never seen where any ďclaims of BC figuresĒ have been made. I have seen numerous instances of computer projected numbers being shared with the knowledge that they were computer generated numbers. I have seen BC numbers posted by Kirby that resulted from testing he did with his gun under his shooting conditions. No claims, just factual statements.

If you, or anyone else interested in the Wildcat bullets, are truly interested in long range hunting then you would do what Kirby mentioned and try the bullets in your gun under your shooting conditions. Simply take a BC number that makes you happy and will be reasonably close and go for it. You can then make adjustments to the BC numbers and happily go about your merry way. Tell yourself they are ďrealĒ and all is well.

If you want to use multiple chronographs, or any other method, then go for it, but quit saying that Richard has to do the testing, and has to list and post the numbers. He doesnít have to do anything and actually thatís better as far as Iím concerned because in the end I know more about what Iím shooting than if I relied on something Iím told.

Iím sure that Kirby will post BC numbers from his testing done with the 7mm in the near future. Will I use them without further testing of my own? No! Will I take them as being written in stone and stake my shooting results on them? No! Will I use them as a starting point for my testing? Yes! Have I done any testing of Wildcats yet? Yes, but I wouldnít list them because they are accurate only for my guns and my conditions, and if they were posted then someone, somewhere would say that they arenít accurate.

I would prefer that Richard leaves the bacon, lettuce and tomatoes off of his product. His basic hamburger is what I have been looking for, and I can and will add them as needed.
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